Best kits producers?
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Something that hasn't been touched on that I thought would be by now is the shipping. That really depends on your LHBS and their markup. Just had a friend of mine who wanted to start making wine, so we took a trip to a local LHBS and I was astounded by the prices for the high end kits. True, I haven't used kits for years, but the prices still seemed awfully high to me. Sooo....as soon as I got home, I went of a couple of big web sites, Georges and NB. What I found was that the prices from George and NB, in most cases were so much lower than the LHBS that even after you paid for the shipping, there was still more than a 10% savings.
Now I really believe in supporting your local LHBS, but not when their markups are that high.
The comment that you didn't want to pay for shipping? Well maybe you should take another look at the prices at Georges + shipping, and those of your LHBS.....maybe you too could be saving 10% and still getting the best kits that you want to use.
Now I really believe in supporting your local LHBS, but not when their markups are that high.
The comment that you didn't want to pay for shipping? Well maybe you should take another look at the prices at Georges + shipping, and those of your LHBS.....maybe you too could be saving 10% and still getting the best kits that you want to use.
Just finished (a month ago) judging at the Kansas City Wine Classic. They don't make any distinction between wines made from grapes or kits in their competition, all are judged blind on a UC Davis Scale.
What I found to be very interresting was that the kits were identified on the entry sheet according to the manufacturer of the kit and the type (I.E> CellarCraft Showcase, WE Estate, etc."
There has been a lot of discussion over the last couple of years about separating out the kit wines from the grapes, so we sat down afterwards and reviewed the scores for kit wines vs grapes. Not surprisingly in the vinifera categories, the best in class went to wine made from grapes (as did the overall best of show). Both red and white winners scored 19+. But what was surprising was that 2nd and 3rd in each category went to kit wines, red a Meglioli Pinot Noir with grape pack, and a Cellarmaster Selection Barbera. Whites showed the same. Here is a breakdown of the medals won by the kit wines by manufacturer.....pretty simiolar to Winemakers Mag competition.
Gold Medals: Mosti Modiale Meglioli 2, Cellarcraft Selection 1
Silver Medals: Mosti 4, CellarCraft 4, Wine Expert 1
Bronze Medals: Cellarcraft 8, Mosti 6, Wine Expert 2, Herron Bay 1
We also looked at the comments made by the judges for the kits......Mosti and Cellarcraft had most comments specific to the wine and the vaarietal. The Wine Expert Kits had a surprising number of comments about "kit taste."
Now I'm not recommending any one over the other......but if I were going to pay for a kit......pretty obvious which ones I would and wouldn't buy.
What I found to be very interresting was that the kits were identified on the entry sheet according to the manufacturer of the kit and the type (I.E> CellarCraft Showcase, WE Estate, etc."
There has been a lot of discussion over the last couple of years about separating out the kit wines from the grapes, so we sat down afterwards and reviewed the scores for kit wines vs grapes. Not surprisingly in the vinifera categories, the best in class went to wine made from grapes (as did the overall best of show). Both red and white winners scored 19+. But what was surprising was that 2nd and 3rd in each category went to kit wines, red a Meglioli Pinot Noir with grape pack, and a Cellarmaster Selection Barbera. Whites showed the same. Here is a breakdown of the medals won by the kit wines by manufacturer.....pretty simiolar to Winemakers Mag competition.
Gold Medals: Mosti Modiale Meglioli 2, Cellarcraft Selection 1
Silver Medals: Mosti 4, CellarCraft 4, Wine Expert 1
Bronze Medals: Cellarcraft 8, Mosti 6, Wine Expert 2, Herron Bay 1
We also looked at the comments made by the judges for the kits......Mosti and Cellarcraft had most comments specific to the wine and the vaarietal. The Wine Expert Kits had a surprising number of comments about "kit taste."
Now I'm not recommending any one over the other......but if I were going to pay for a kit......pretty obvious which ones I would and wouldn't buy.
I think I need to clarify my comment on "shipping water" because I think it was largely misunderstood. What I meant is that I don't want to order 23 liter kits when I can get a good 16 or 18 liter kit and save shipment on the 5 or 7 liters of water. Grape juice is about 70-80% water and when a concentrate is made, some of the water is removed by whatever process. The water I was referring to is the water still in an "all juice" kit. I can add spring water at my place and save shipping on about 10-15 lbs. That is what I meant.
I will also allow, based on what has been posted, that perhaps I have been hasty in painting all Mosti Mondiale products with the same brush.
I will also allow, based on what has been posted, that perhaps I have been hasty in painting all Mosti Mondiale products with the same brush.
Giovannino
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en Premier is highly recommended in several threads in this forum, does that mean it is too good or too bad for that competition - it is not even mentioned.
You also do not mention which kits the judges referred to - ie entry, premium, ultra premiem etc.
No offence but actually you ARE recommending, because you're making your opinion of choice obvious.
rhoffart
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The only question I have is; If you remove the water and then add it back, can it be as good?
The only thing that comes to mind is orange juice. You know the cans of orange sludge (frozen I think) you mix with water. That stuff didn't even taste like orange juice.
I'd rather pay the extra for shipping and skip this process.
Nothing will ever be as good as juice that has not been messed with. They remove the water via reverse osmosis. Thats a pretty simple straight forward procedure. Its the need for pasteurization that I personally thinks changes things. Anytime you have to heat a natural product hot enough to kill all bacteria (even if its only for short amount of time) you are degrading to some extent what mother nature produced, even if its only slightly.
I made a bunch of the original Mosti Renaissance kits and all turned out very good to excellent. The Rio Grande Rojo I made came with just 16L of juice and it can hold its own to any commercial $10-15 bottle from Chile. Loads of depth, tons of flavors and an amazing finish for a mid end kit. I added some TanCor but other than that was made stock. Like many of you have mentioned, the MM AJ kits were no better (and perhaps slightly disappointing) when compared to the Renaissance kits. Perhaps it was just the marketing aspect in which if you paid $20-25 more for something it should be leaps and bounds better than the other kits and they just were not.
Not saying they were not good, just saying they were not any better, so save the $$$ and buy the Renaissance kits. Now that they are rolling out with grape packs and raisins etc they should be a very good/great wine for the money. I still like Cellar Craft Showcase but we all know that the sale has put a big ? mark in their future. Plus they have raised the prices to ~$150 a kit.
I made a bunch of the original Mosti Renaissance kits and all turned out very good to excellent. The Rio Grande Rojo I made came with just 16L of juice and it can hold its own to any commercial $10-15 bottle from Chile. Loads of depth, tons of flavors and an amazing finish for a mid end kit. I added some TanCor but other than that was made stock. Like many of you have mentioned, the MM AJ kits were no better (and perhaps slightly disappointing) when compared to the Renaissance kits. Perhaps it was just the marketing aspect in which if you paid $20-25 more for something it should be leaps and bounds better than the other kits and they just were not.
Not saying they were not good, just saying they were not any better, so save the $$$ and buy the Renaissance kits. Now that they are rolling out with grape packs and raisins etc they should be a very good/great wine for the money. I still like Cellar Craft Showcase but we all know that the sale has put a big ? mark in their future. Plus they have raised the prices to ~$150 a kit.
Giovaninno
Don't really know the answer to that one (grin). Just had a bottle of RJ Pinot at a friends house and it was wonderful.
The fact is, for some reason, that there were no RJ kits identified on the entry documents. Wxcept from buying it from George, or NB nobody here locally carries the RJ line. They are some good wine kits and a lot of people I know around here make them, and I know that in the past there have been RJ kits entered that have won medals. This year, for some reason, none were entered.
The Heron Bay that got a bronze was the only Heron Bay that was entered also. Don't know the reason why, but just that they weren't entered this year.
Bill
Don't really know the answer to that one (grin). Just had a bottle of RJ Pinot at a friends house and it was wonderful.
The fact is, for some reason, that there were no RJ kits identified on the entry documents. Wxcept from buying it from George, or NB nobody here locally carries the RJ line. They are some good wine kits and a lot of people I know around here make them, and I know that in the past there have been RJ kits entered that have won medals. This year, for some reason, none were entered.
The Heron Bay that got a bronze was the only Heron Bay that was entered also. Don't know the reason why, but just that they weren't entered this year.
Bill
As for my preferences....I have to admit that I do like Megioli and Cellarcraft, Just haven't had a bad wine made from either....and have limited exposure to RJS.
The entry forms didn't ask for the type of kit (premier, etc.). I would suppose, however, that only the premium kits made it to the medal rounds, but even that is an assumption.
If you look at the Winemaker contest breakdowns, they closely mimic what we saw also. The fact that RJS isn't readilly available in this area holds down there entries.
In the competition, we have wines submitted from all over the country, but kit wines are usally local submissions, with grapes, fruit, and meads predominant from outside of this area
The entry forms didn't ask for the type of kit (premier, etc.). I would suppose, however, that only the premium kits made it to the medal rounds, but even that is an assumption.
If you look at the Winemaker contest breakdowns, they closely mimic what we saw also. The fact that RJS isn't readilly available in this area holds down there entries.
In the competition, we have wines submitted from all over the country, but kit wines are usally local submissions, with grapes, fruit, and meads predominant from outside of this area
Giovannino
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Thanks Bill. I guess since given that RJS is not sold in the area is a good reason for them not to make the list - hehehe. Me thinks therefore, stats don't tell the real story.
I have a couple of RJS' batches ready for bottling in January so won't know until then whether promising or not.
There are a few country fairs around here perhaps I'll try entering something - your post WAS encouraging afterall.
I have a couple of RJS' batches ready for bottling in January so won't know until then whether promising or not.
There are a few country fairs around here perhaps I'll try entering something - your post WAS encouraging afterall.
Putterrr
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Yesterday I bottled my first kit made with a grape skin pack. It was RJS Rosso Grande Eccellente, Cellar Classic Winery Series. It was started March 1 2011. Over the years I have made well over a hundred 6 week premium kits from RJS and WE and this was by far the best. Even at this young age, it was very full with great tannin structure. It reminded me of a glass of store Cab Sav I had at a x-mas party on friday. I have 3 other grape skin kits on the go and 1 more in the box and now that I have had a taste of the good stuff, I see many more in my future. Well worth the extra $$
Cheers
Cheers
Laughing
Although the results don't say much about the RJS kits since there weren't any entered this year, I went to the organizers who gave me the data for the last 4 years.
This showed that there were 18 wines enered that were made from the RJS kits during this time with the following results. 1 Gold, 2 Silver and 5 Brone. Not bad results....sorry that I didn't have this info before....only just the 2011 results.
I think you might be right though, on my prejudices. Though I haven't made a kit in a few years, in considering them for purchase, these results definitely show which ones I would consider and which I wouldn't. Doesn't mean that good wine cannot be made from any kit....but the results seem to point you to certain kits, and away from others.
Will have to make a kit, however, this year....one of my prizes was one of the new WE grape pack kits. Hey...the price was right (grin).
As for entering contests, it not only can be fun and a nice pat on the back if you medal, they can also be frustrating. Have found that the ones sponsored by wine clubs are usually the best, while state fairs can be very frustrating because of their selection of judges. Some of them think that the sweet rotgut reds are the epitome (yecch).
If you are interrested, the KC Cellarmasters contest in Nov of each year is one of the best.....since all of the members of the club are wine makers, not just wine tasters; and the judging is done by experienced wine makers, many of them professionals in the industry. You can find out more about it at www.cellarmasters.org and click on Wine Classic.
Although the results don't say much about the RJS kits since there weren't any entered this year, I went to the organizers who gave me the data for the last 4 years.
This showed that there were 18 wines enered that were made from the RJS kits during this time with the following results. 1 Gold, 2 Silver and 5 Brone. Not bad results....sorry that I didn't have this info before....only just the 2011 results.
I think you might be right though, on my prejudices. Though I haven't made a kit in a few years, in considering them for purchase, these results definitely show which ones I would consider and which I wouldn't. Doesn't mean that good wine cannot be made from any kit....but the results seem to point you to certain kits, and away from others.
Will have to make a kit, however, this year....one of my prizes was one of the new WE grape pack kits. Hey...the price was right (grin).
As for entering contests, it not only can be fun and a nice pat on the back if you medal, they can also be frustrating. Have found that the ones sponsored by wine clubs are usually the best, while state fairs can be very frustrating because of their selection of judges. Some of them think that the sweet rotgut reds are the epitome (yecch).
If you are interrested, the KC Cellarmasters contest in Nov of each year is one of the best.....since all of the members of the club are wine makers, not just wine tasters; and the judging is done by experienced wine makers, many of them professionals in the industry. You can find out more about it at www.cellarmasters.org and click on Wine Classic.
Giovannino
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Bill, thanks for going that extra mile and getting the info, your effort IS appreciated.
Not sure if I said it before that although I have a couple of RJS batches going I prefer WE because their retailer here, is second to none when it comes to Customer Care and Service and because every inquiry I've ever made with WE's Head Office has been responded to and addressed, in a very short period of time.
As for the others, their premises were small and cramped - I like space.
Again, THANKS
Not sure if I said it before that although I have a couple of RJS batches going I prefer WE because their retailer here, is second to none when it comes to Customer Care and Service and because every inquiry I've ever made with WE's Head Office has been responded to and addressed, in a very short period of time.
As for the others, their premises were small and cramped - I like space.
Again, THANKS
blairholand
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Think about just purchasing juice
I stopped getting kits I found none of them had that much to offer after i made my first batch from scratch by purchasing fruit from the local orchard. I found if you balance your wine throughout the wine making process almost all juice turned out good. Now if you are looking for great you will need to make more adjustments then just balancing your wine. I guess what I am saying is getting juice or fruit from the local orchard choosing your yeast and making your wine from scratch I enjoy it much better than getting a kit.
Don't get me wrong when you first start a kit takes a ton of the guess work out and if you are getting a cheaper kit make sure you balance your Must and try to keep it balanced through the whole process. You can take a cheap kit and make it a very good wine.
I stopped getting kits I found none of them had that much to offer after i made my first batch from scratch by purchasing fruit from the local orchard. I found if you balance your wine throughout the wine making process almost all juice turned out good. Now if you are looking for great you will need to make more adjustments then just balancing your wine. I guess what I am saying is getting juice or fruit from the local orchard choosing your yeast and making your wine from scratch I enjoy it much better than getting a kit.
Don't get me wrong when you first start a kit takes a ton of the guess work out and if you are getting a cheaper kit make sure you balance your Must and try to keep it balanced through the whole process. You can take a cheap kit and make it a very good wine.
cpfan
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blairholand....
local availability of fruit (ie California) is great, but kits still fill a couple of holes (eg from fruit that isn't available, or out of season).
also, I can't be bothered to source the fruit, get the equipment, etc etc.
Steve
local availability of fruit (ie California) is great, but kits still fill a couple of holes (eg from fruit that isn't available, or out of season).
also, I can't be bothered to source the fruit, get the equipment, etc etc.
Steve
tonyt
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Wade how did the Impressions turn out. How do they compare to the other skins kits of CC and RJS?
