Anybody use wild yeast method??

[Pumpkinman]

nayrea143,
Making wine without using any commercial yeast and chemicals has been done for far longer than we can imagine, I have no doubt that following your mentors instructions that you'll make a great wine.
I have a buddy that has been making wine for over 20 yrs like that, I would drink his wine and it would always be great, but oddly enough, as soon as I brought some of his wine home, within a week, the wine would spoil.

This was very puzzling to me until I started thinking about it, whatever combination of temperature, lighting, and most important, the fact that his bottles were all sealed; all of these factors could have lead to the a perfect storage environment, once they were opened, nature took its normal course and the spoilage organisms that had been relatively dormant now woke up with the introduction of oxygen and caused the wine to spoil - fast.

My buddy had been making at least 100 gallons of wine or more a year this way, he had grown so accustomed to his wine that he didn't realize that most of it had become oxidized and tasted like sherry, I've heard this called "cellar palate", when you always drink your own wine, seldom drinking a commercial wine that your wine is the only wine that tastes good, and any faults now are just "the way my wine tastes".

Once I persuaded my buddy to use select commercial strains of yeast and to start to stabilize his wine with Potassium Metabisulfite, his wine has improved 10 fold, he has dumped hundreds of gallons of oxidized wine from his past wine making ventures and is now amazed just how good his wine is.
He can even recreate a wine if he really likes the way it turns out, when you rely on wild yeasts, there is no way to replicate a batch of wine, you are at the mercy of the wild yeast, not to mention if the wild yeast is an undesirable strain that will bring out negative characteristics associated with that particular strain of yeast.

Most of us only add the bare minimum sulfite necessary to stabilize the wine, no one wants any more than is absolutely necessary.
I wish you luck, keep us posted!

 

[ShawnDTurner]

Well said Tom. Basic wine knowledge that everyone should know!

 

[nayrea143]

nayrea143, Making wine without using any commercial yeast and chemicals has been done for far longer than we can imagine, I have no doubt that following your mentors instructions that you'll make a great wine. I have a buddy that has been making wine for over 20 yrs like that, I would drink his wine and it would always be great, but oddly enough, as soon as I brought some of his wine home, within a week, the wine would spoil. This was very puzzling to me until I started thinking about it, whatever combination of temperature, lighting, and most important, the fact that his bottles were all sealed; all of these factors could have lead to the a perfect storage environment, once they were opened, nature took its normal course and the spoilage organisms that had been relatively dormant now woke up with the introduction of oxygen and caused the wine to spoil - fast. My buddy had been making at least 100 gallons of wine or more a year this way, he had grown so accustomed to his wine that he didn't realize that most of it had become oxidized and tasted like sherry, I've heard this called "cellar palate", when you always drink your own wine, seldom drinking a commercial wine that your wine is the only wine that tastes good, and any faults now are just "the way my wine tastes". Once I persuaded my buddy to use select commercial strains of yeast and to start to stabilize his wine with Potassium Metabisulfite, his wine has improved 10 fold, he has dumped hundreds of gallons of oxidized wine from his past wine making ventures and is now amazed just how good his wine is. He can even recreate a wine if he really likes the way it turns out, when you rely on wild yeasts, there is no way to replicate a batch of wine, you are at the mercy of the wild yeast, not to mention if the wild yeast is an undesirable strain that will bring out negative characteristics associated with that particular strain of yeast. Most of us only add the bare minimum sulfite necessary to stabilize the wine, no one wants any more than is absolutely necessary. I wish you luck, keep us posted!

Thank u so much for all this wonderful information. What u have said was very insightful and rather eye opening for me. Perhaps I should reconsider. I am a little intimidated by all the math formulas and chemicals. But I am sure with some research I could figure it out. I am so in live with this new wine making venture I want to be good at it and am willing to do the work. Example. I made this batch from juice and within a week bough a huge crusher and press for next time. I am worried that I won't go through the wine as fast as they do and that cellars palate could totally be me!!!!!! I just really liked the idea of keeping it old school but perhaps in this instance new improvements will make better wine. And that's what matters most!!!!! Seriously thank u guys!!!!! My mentors have no clue when I mention my sg reading or cultured yeast. They just keep telling me listen to it and wait. Lol lol.

 

[Turock]

Pumpkinman---That was an excellent post!

 

[Turock]

You often hear that sulfites cause headaches. But this is not the case. I researched this one time and found that the reason some people get headaches or stuffy nose from red wines is because red grapes contain ALOT of histamine. Different varieties contain differing amounts. But some grapes can have thousands of PPM of histamine. White grapes contain much less histamine.

So sulfite takes the rap for something that it is innocent of. Don't believe everything you hear about sulfite. Do your own research to find the truth.

 

[jamesngalveston]

Turock and pumkinman...gave you excellent advise..actually its excellent for all of us...great replys from both........
Its so easy to learn, when you have good teachers....Thanks.

nayrea143, there is so much knowledge here,you cant fail, if you follow a recipe and ask questions when your stumped....
glad you like the hobby,are is it passion...btw...you will have plenty of friends to help drink your wine, you will not get,a cellars palate

 

[Turock]

By the way--don't be intimidated. I know the learning curve seems steep. But we all feel that way when we are starting to learn ANYTHING. But you learn one thing at a time--and eventually your brain starts wrapping itself around the science and you begin understanding WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing.

And all of us here will help you. Just ask.

 

[BernardSmith]

Ha ha ha yes I get it. But I was following a friends and their wine is always delicious!!! They do it by listening to it and tasting. Lol. But I am not as relaxed as them and I kinda find this method frustrating.

Hi Nayrea, But there is also one other element that is important. You say your friends have been making wine using wild yeasts for some time. That suggests to me that they have albeit accidentally and without intention, "cultivated" certain strains of wild yeasts (in the same way that bakeries have far more useful sourdough yeasts in the locale than I would have). It may be that much of the source of their yeast is not simply on their fruit but in their tools and containers and even in the spaces they live. One suggestion I would make is that you begin your prep or even the fermentation in their environment and once your must has begun to ferment you bring it over to your place.

 

[Turock]

Very true. The dominant yeast--or the one you use the most of--becomes a resident in the winery and sometimes you get spontainious ferments because of the resident yeast.

You said their wine is "strong tasting." Might be the characteristic of the wild yeast, combined with a higher alcohol content.

There are SO many very good cultures for reds that produce softer flavors and enhance fruit characteristics. I think if you try some of these, you'll be amazed at the difference. All of our big reds have excellent flavor, and are nice and smooth even when left as dry wines. Even our friends, who don't like dry wines, can't believe how good some of these wines are. I'm just not so sure I'd like to have that wild culture permeate my winery. It's a decision you'll have to make.

 

[nayrea143]

Thank u thank u thank u!!!! U guys are so knowledgable. U are really expanding my thinking. I could read this over and over!!!! I didn't really realize how the yeast itself changes the characteristics of the wine!!! Mind blown!!!!! Lol

 

[Turock]

By the way--in all this conversation--we've never asked you what grapes your friends use. Based on that, we can suggest different cultures for you to explore for more info, and maybe try next year so you can come up with your own style.

 

[nayrea143]

They use different ones usually and then they blend them a bit too. Always big reds. I did Italian merlot this time. I am going to do Chilean cab/sav or maybe Pinot in the spring from grapes. Can't wait!!!! Any suggestions on books for me ????

 

[Turock]

Yes--there are 2 books that you should find very useful. Both of these books are on www.MoreWine.com The first one is their Guide to Red Winemaking. The second one is authored by Dan Pambianchi ( the revered "god" of winemaking science) and is called Techniques in Home Winemaking. If you order these books from MoreWine, ask for their Catalog--you'll be able to read about all the fine cultures they sell for the grapes you want to work with.

Just a little warning about Pinot Noir. This grape is terrible (in my opinion) done in fruit style. It's flavor is strange and also harsh. It really needs to have an MLF performed on it, which is a secondary fermentation done with a bacteria to convert the malic acid to lactic acid. Much reading should be done on this before attempting for the first time. Google "MLF" and you'll find substancial white papers written on it. Print the instructions--read them over a few times--and follow them exactly if/when attempting it for the first time. I have quite a few MLF's under my belt, as do others on here, so we can help if you decide to make a Pinot Noir.

However, there's another school of thought that it's best to perfect your primary winemaking skills first--learning how to make a great wine--THEN going to MLF. Acid adjustment, TA adjustment is also something you should study over winter because of the grapes you're using.

We make Cab and Pinot Noir but it's always juice, so we don't have the extreme adjusting of the juice since most of that is already done. But with the grapes--you need to know what you're doing with them, especially if performing MLF because you have some acid limits to take into consideration. Also nitrogen requirements of these kinds of grapes. It would be good to go into the "wine from grapes" thread on this forum and talk with people who commonly work with these grapes. Also there are extreme experts on these grapes at the West Chester wine club (I think they're in New Jersey) that you can Google. When those guys talk--my head hurts. They have a forum online. I just don't work with the varieties of grapes that they do. And all of our knowledge is limited to what we commonly work with.

 

[nayrea143]

Thank u again! I will def wait in the Pinot grapes. And I have looked up the info and books. They are great!!!! Still intimidating and confusing but I will get it. I am going to try to keep it as simple as possible for now. But I will be using yeast and sulfite next time. So glad I found this app!!!!! I am going to finger lakes on a few weeks for a wine tasting and turning 20 plus wineries. I can't wait to see and learn some more!!!

 

[Turock]

Now THAT is a real good idea!!! Go to the wineries and taste their wines done in the grapes your friends work with. While at the winery, don't hesitate to ask them about the cultures they use,etc. Many times, the pourers there won't know--and alot of BS talk goes on from these people so don't believe EVERYTHING the pourers tell you. But if the winery owner is around--THAT'S the guy to talk with.

I know I'm throwing alot of "stuff" at you and I apologize for that--I don't want to overwhelm you. We all learn as we go--we don't learn 25 years of winemaking in one year.

Getting ferments under your belt is a great way to get some wisdom. You don't have to wait for grape season for this either. Did you ever consider fruit wines? Easy to get going on that in early summer with strawberries and cherries. We make alot of different fruit wines. They are all made with no water and have real big fruit flavor. They all taste like the fruits they're made from. There's nothing better than a well-made fruit wine!!

What locale do you live in? Other native grapes make mighty fine wines,too.

I'm glad you found the books. It's been great talking with you---I've really enjoyed it. Always fun to help guide a new winemaker--we've taught many local people,here, how to make wine. Many of them have ribboned in wine competitions--one even took a Best of Show! Always "up" for conversation, as are many other winemakers on this site.

 

[nayrea143]

Yes I am hoping to get some info from the tours. I also have a friend who's family owns a local winery. So hopefully I will get to see them at the next family get together. I live in south jersey!! Fruit wine huh??? Never had it. Sounds yummy!!!!!

 

[nayrea143]

This was exactly what I needed!!! U have been so helpful and informative. I am a perfectionist and I will prob go crazy trying to master this!!!!!

 

[nayrea143]

Oh and should I test my wine again??? It's still bubbles in the air lock and there is still bubbles on the top of the wine........

 

[Turock]

I knew I liked you! I'm a perfectionist too--sometimes kind of anal--but try not to take it to ridiculous levels. But I always want to do my best at anything I do--so I understand. Actually, you should make a very good winemaker with that kind of attitude. You'll learn things completely, instead of just scratching the surface.

I sort of felt you were in NJ--you've got to check out the West Chester wine club. Google "Marty Yule" and you'll find his club website. That guy knows more about winemaking than all of us put together, plus another 1000 people. Those guys will be a big help to you--very simple to sign into his site and ask all your questions. They work with nothing other than these big red wines that you're working with. They are real masters.

Is your wine in a carboy? Did you check the SG with a hydrometer before it went into the secondary? If it's in a carboy, all you want to do is bulk age it, raking the sediment off as necessary and letting it age up for about 1 year. It would be a good idea to get some sulfite in it. But we don't know what its PH is so kind of a shot in the dark. It would not hurt to have 50 PPM of free SO2 on this wine. Add 1/4 tsp of powdered meta bisulfite now, and in a month or so add another 1/4 tsp. The reason for this is because part of the sulfite binds with the oxygen, sugars, bacteria,yeast and acetaldehyde in the wine. Bound SO2 doesn't protect the wine--only free SO2 does. To know how much free SO2 is in the wine requires testing. But accurate testing is expensive and the titration kits have too much error. But this wine has no sulfites and no protection--it SHOULD have some added. But if you want this wine free of SO2--in the tradition of the way your friends do it--then that is a choice you have to make.

While we're on the subject of SO2, if you get a catalog from MoreWine, they have a nice little discussion about sulfites that you'll find useful. But you can go to www.morewinemaking.com/content/manuals and read their red winemaking manual and the free MoreManual on SO2 Management.

Your wine needs to degass and drop out its sediment--this is the only way to stabilize the wine so that it will be stable in the bottle. The bubbles are the CO2 coming off of it--the by-product of yeast. Reds are bulk aged one year--at least. This wine done on wild yeast and no sulfite makes me nervous. And just let me say---if you're doing Cab, that is almost always done with an MLF. Makes it more smooth, reduces acid and makes the wine more robust. We did a Cab from juice this fall--we fermented it then did an MLF on it. It will bulk age for 1 year then we will bottle it and age it in the bottles for 1-2 years before drinking. I'm not sure I ever had a Cab without an MLF. No wonder you say their wine is "strong!"

Never had a fruit wine---you have no idea what you're missing. Fruit wines here are very popular--the Amish Winery in southern OH makes many of them. Too bad you're not closer to us---we make MEAN fruit wines. Maybe you'll give it a try next year?

 

[Stressbaby]

Hi Nayrea,
Jumping in late here, and enjoyed reading all of the posts...but to get back to your original post/question...are you sure about that starting SG? 1.190 is not even on the scale of any of my hydrometers.