Anybody use wild yeast method??

[nayrea143]

I am making my first batch from juice and I am following a friends family tradition of making wine the "old fashion" way. We are using wild fermentation and add no chemicals. I have had a lot if their wines and they are amazing. So it definitely works and can be done. However my wine fermentation process has been so crazy. Very little activity then all of a sudden starts up again. Ect ect. It has been fermenting since mid oct.
10-16 s.g 1.190
11-3 s.g 1.021
11-9 s.g 1.021
Any advice would be appreciated. Eek

 

[nayrea143]

I should probably say sorry I don't have more info or readings but my wine mentors don't do it that way so neither have I. I really like the idea of no chemicals or additives.

 

[jamesngalveston]

I have a batch of wild mustang grape that is made the old way.
No yeast, just sugar, no chemicals...its been in a 3 gallon carboy since july, it has now ceased fermenting, and is clearing...
Taste very good...im leaving it as it is, and will bottle when clear.

 

[nayrea143]

Ok so it's not strange that it's taking so long. It took over two weeks to start fermenting. So it has been only about a month. We had a thin towel over it initially and just now switchers to air lock. It's a 6 gallon Carboy of Italian merlot. I just love this new hobby so much. I just bought a crusher and press so we can do grapes next season!!! So scared I am going to mess it up. Ahhhhhhhhh

 

[Turock]

It would be a good idea to give the yeast some nutrient. Lack of it is probably why the ferment is so erratic. Split the dose and pitch half of it at the beginning of the ferment and the second one before the ferment reaches the 50% dry stage.

Ferments without nutrient can stress the yeast and produce excessive amounts of H2S--so no matter what the yeast is, it needs to be fed.

 

[novalou]

I am making my first batch from juice and I am following a friends family tradition of making wine the "old fashion" way. We are using wild fermentation and add no chemicals. I have had a lot if their wines and they are amazing. So it definitely works and can be done. However my wine fermentation process has been so crazy. Very little activity then all of a sudden starts up again. Ect ect. It has been fermenting since mid oct. 10-16 s.g 1.190 11-3 s.g 1.021 11-9 s.g 1.021 Any advice would be appreciated. Eek

Your starting SG was pretty high. It's tough to fully ferment sugar that high with wine yeast, let alone wild yeast. It's probably nearly done fermenting, your wild yeast is meeting it's alcohol toxicity.

Let it finish and clear. Do NOT add nutrients now.

 

[SouthernChemist]

You must have some pretty strong wild yeast to have fermented from ~1.190 to ~1.020. Most wild yeasts will actually give up well before then, which is one of the reasons people tend not to do it.

 

[Turock]

Yes--I agree with what's being said. I was suggesting the nutrient for future ferments done this way--not suggesting nutrient now.

Wild yeast fermenting is always such a crap shoot because you have no idea what strains you're dealing with. All wine yeasts are actually wild yeasts that are isolated and cultured for their particular attributes. So using a 'known culture" is all that you're buying. It's not been "engineered" in the lab. This is why most of us use the known cultures, so that we can control our ferments by knowing what the requirements are of the yeast we choose.

 

[nayrea143]

Thank u all for the info!!!! The people that are helping me have been doing it this way for generations. And it always turns out good. I however don't do well with the un predictability. I am trying to find a middle between the two methods. My own method So if I do use yeast on my next batch would I have to use the other chemicals and such or can I just use the yeast to start and follow their method the rest of the way??? They also wait to rack it for the first time till a few months after. Stays in original Carboy/barrel. I think the sugar was so high bc it's straight merlot. From what I have read its a high sugar juice. And makes very strong alcohol levels. And it was a slow start but it did really start fermenting pretty good. Then slowed then started again. Driving me crazy!!!!

 

[nayrea143]

You must have some pretty strong wild yeast to have fermented from ~1.190 to ~1.020. Most wild yeasts will actually give up well before then, which is one of the reasons people tend not to do it.

So if it's done it this far then it is working good right??? Just slow and inconsistent??

 

[Turock]

It's going to have some residual sugar because an SG of 1.020 is about 6 brix.

I don't like unpredictability either. When using an unknown, wild culture you just have no idea of alcohol tolerance and if it's going to handle the brix of the grapes. Like I said--it's such a crap shoot. The wild yeast probably died from alcohol toxicity, which is why it didn't finish to dry.

I think you have to do things the way you want to. There's nothing saying that you can't make as good a wine as your friends by using known cultures. You might be surprised--yours may turn out just like theirs or even better.

I'm always confused when people say they don't want to use "chemicals" in their wines. The only chemical is meta. Pectic enzyme, nutrient are natural substances. You might want to get yourself some real good books on red winemaking. MoreWine has a good one. Reading about nutrients, ferments and such is a good idea too and Scott Labs has their Fermentation Handbook online that you can read. Lallemand also has an excellent site that will give you alot of the chemistry behind winemaking. With some more "education" you can make a decision on how to procede with your winemaking in the future.

There are some grapes that are low in nitrogen. Not sure if Merlot is one of them because I don't work with that grape. But it's important to know the characteristics of the grapes or fruits you work with so that you can provide them with what they need to make the ferment go smoothly. Nutrient provides nitrogen and makes the yeast more tolerant to alcohol. So understanding the additions used in winemaking will make your wines much better and without problems.

High brix grapes need a yeast that will tolerate the potential alcohol. You might find it interesting that Lalvin has a yeast for grapes like Merlot that has aromas of black cherry, berry and cherry cola in red wines. Boy, that sounds good!! It's L2226 yeast.

Yes--I would just let this bulk age and clear. Don't try manipulating it any more.

 

[jjduen]

I have been doing a Concord via natural method.

The vineyard/winery owner told me to leave the skins in during fermentation and to flip them over every three days till fermentation stops.

The ferment started off very slow and then gradually picked up speed. I racked after four weeks and letting the wine age. Initial taste was excellent like drinking a Concord grape fresh off the vine.

End gravity before racking was .990

 

[SouthernChemist]

One other thing that people tend to forget is that yeast produce a fair number of molecules during fermentation, including things like SO2, and they chemically manipulate (intentionally or otherwise) compounds already present. That's really where the magic comes from over time.

 

[sour_grapes]

If I get lucky, I can also catch a fastball barehanded and shift without depressing the clutch. But why would I want to?

 

[nayrea143]

This forum is so wonderful!!! You guys are all great!!! I think I will get some books and maybe use the yeast next time. I just wasn't sure if I would have to use potassium sorbate and metabisulphite and those cap tablets and ect. Some instructions have u add sugar too. I like the idea of using the yeast just not the sulfites and all. Wasn't sure if I could pick and choose. My juice is still fermenting now so I am hoping it will get down to a nice dry wine. Their is still some bubbles on top and still bubbles coming through the air lock. Fingers crossed!!!! I guess I should get another reading to check that it's still dropping. Yes?? Or just leave it??

 

[nayrea143]

If I get lucky, I can also catch a fastball barehanded and shift without depressing the clutch. But why would I want to?

Ha ha ha yes I get it. But I was following a friends and their wine is always delicious!!! They do it by listening to it and tasting. Lol. But I am not as relaxed as them and I kinda find this method frustrating.

 

[Turock]

Well, you should get used to the idea of using sulfite or you'll find you end up losing alot of wine to oxidation. The only way to avoid it is to drink the wine up quickly. Sulfiting should always be done in accordance to the PH of the wine--the higher the PH, the more sulfite you need.

Sorbate is only used if you sweeten the wine--dry wines don't need it. If you sweeten and don't add sorbate, the wine will referment because of the remaining yeast cells and blow the corks. The wine will be fizzy, also.

Many of the things you eat and drink have sulfites or some level of preservation in them. If they didn't, we'd all be awash in bacteria and molds. Even hand cream needs preservatives or else you'd have to keep it refrigerated to prevent mold growth. No need to over-sulfite. But proper levels are very important, after all the work and expense you go thru to produce a wine.

 

[nayrea143]

Well, you should get used to the idea of using sulfite or you'll find you end up losing alot of wine to oxidation. The only way to avoid it is to drink the wine up quickly. Sulfiting should always be done in accordance to the PH of the wine--the higher the PH, the more sulfite you need. Sorbate is only used if you sweeten the wine--dry wines don't need it. If you sweeten and don't add sorbate, the wine will referment because of the remaining yeast cells and blow the corks. The wine will be fizzy, also. Many of the things you eat and drink have sulfites or some level of preservation in them. If they didn't, we'd all be awash in bacteria and molds. Even hand cream needs preservatives or else you'd have to keep it refrigerated to prevent mold growth. No need to over-sulfite. But proper levels are very important, after all the work and expense you go thru to produce a wine.

I was worried about that initially too!!! But my friends assure me their wine stays just fine and they don't add anything??!!!! How can that be then??? I am so confused.

 

[Turock]

Well, how long do they keep the wine around after bottling?

All I can tell you is my experience with this. WAY back--when we were new winemakers and had little knowledge under our hats--we were VERY stingy with adding sulfites. And after those wines were bottled, we'd open them and they'd have the nutty flavor of oxidation. As time went on, the nutty flavor became the harsh "metal" flavor of bad oxidation. We tossed many wines because of this.

After doing more study, and talking to members of other wine forums where the members were very strong on wine science, we started understanding the science of sulfite. We've never had oxidized wines after that. You have to understand that the PH and alcohol content is what protects the wine to some degree--but wine still needs sulfite for preservation, including when it is bulk aged for long time periods.

Don't fear sulfite--it's your friend when used in proper amounts. And you should always sulfite your must in order to knock down the bacterial growth, as this can lead to sluggish or stuck ferments. Of course, if you're using wild yeast, you don't want to do that or you stun them and they might have a hard time getting going. But this is why you have to come up with you're own plan.

Acetobacter bacteria--which is the bacteria that produces vinegar--is EVERYWHERE. Including on the skin of grapes. Birds sit and poop on grapes. If you ask me, I'd rather have the sulfite on the must and then use a known culture!! And sulfite needs to be used on everthing that touches the wine--or you risk vinegar production again.

 

[nayrea143]

Well, how long do they keep the wine around after bottling? All I can tell you is my experience with this. WAY back--when we were new winemakers and had little knowledge under our hats--we were VERY stingy with adding sulfites. And after those wines were bottled, we'd open them and they'd have the nutty flavor of oxidation. As time went on, the nutty flavor became the harsh "metal" flavor of bad oxidation. We tossed many wines because of this. After doing more study, and talking to members of other wine forums where the members were very strong on wine science, we started understanding the science of sulfite. We've never had oxidized wines after that. You have to understand that the PH and alcohol content is what protects the wine to some degree--but wine still needs sulfite for preservation, including when it is bulk aged for long time periods. Don't fear sulfite--it's your friend when used in proper amounts. And you should always sulfite your must in order to knock down the bacterial growth, as this can lead to sluggish or stuck ferments. Of course, if you're using wild yeast, you don't want to do that or you stun them and they might have a hard time getting going. But this is why you have to come up with you're own plan. Acetobacter bacteria--which is the bacteria that produces vinegar--is EVERYWHERE. Including on the skin of grapes. Birds sit and poop on grapes. If you ask me, I'd rather have the sulfite on the must and then use a known culture!! And sulfite needs to be used on everthing that touches the wine--or you risk vinegar production again.

They leave theirs bulk age for at least a year then bottle. Always saving some from each year longer in the bottles. Their wine is very strong. Yeah I think that's a good way use sulfate and yeast but nothing else. It's just that u hear so much about how the sulfites In the wine are bad. And that this way is so pure and old fashion. Slow and steady u know?! He he