1 In 5 California Early Adopters of EVs Move Back To ICE - For Convenience Reasons......

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David Clark

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"General Motors is telling owners of 2017-2019 Bolt EVs that were part of a recent recall not to park their vehicles inside or charge them unattended overnight after two of the vehicles caught fire."
Read the story on CNBC.
Years ago Ford recalled 1.5 million Pintos because people were blowing up in their cars due to fuel tank location in the event of a crash. All cars have problems, the user need to apply a little common sense.
 
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How much oil is burned at the Electricity Plant to provide the energy equivalent to charge your EV? Well you do gooders, it takes roughly 40% more fuel to burn to make the electricity to charge you EV to go the same miles using gasoline. Do if you use 14 gallons of gas for your car to go 100 miles in you gasoline powered car you would burn, at the electric plant 14 gallons of oil. So how are you reducing polution? Please explain!. Not to mention, how do they get rid of the dead batteries? Oh Yeah. They haven't figured that out yet!
Does look like there's a lot more inefficiencies in the process than most people think.
 

sour_grapes

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Consider the cases of (1) burning a fuel in an internal combustion engine, and (2) burning a fuel for the purpose of converting it to electricity. Both cases are subject to the same ineluctable laws of physics that limit the mechanical work that can be captured to roughly half of the thermal energy contained in the primary fuel source. Real-world implementations are down to something like 25% for ICE (and somewhat higher for electric generation).

In the case of electrical generation, once the energy is in the "refined" form of electricity, it can be converted to mechanical work with high efficiency. But you still had to "take the hit" on the front end, during the conversion to electricity.

Of course, there are other ways of generating electricity besides burning fuel (wind, solar, hydro, geothermal...). And you cannot practically* use that electricity to power an ICE. So, although ICE and EV are on roughly equal carbon footing now, there is the hope that EVs could utilize primarily clean energy in the future.

*Of course, you could use the electricity to make, say, hydrogen gas from water, then burn that in an ICE, but that would be pretty silly.
 
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geek

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I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.

I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when it comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.

I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.
 
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gmiele01

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I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.

I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when in comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.

I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.
Not saying it's not fun to drive, it's just not saving ANY fossil fuel and in fact Wasting more fuel so YOU can have MORE FUN driving. I think you "green" is the wrong color for your thinking.
 

geek

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Not saying it's not fun to drive, it's just not saving ANY fossil fuel and in fact Wasting more fuel so YOU can have MORE FUN driving. I think you "green" is the wrong color for your thinking.
Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?
 
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Why not have both, EV for commuting and a nice truck for long hauls. Solar panels for low cost charging. No fluids in the EV means minimal maintenance for the commuter vehicle. Win win. Don't overthink.
Excellent viewpoint. It's all personal choices as to what works for you. If you live in California, for example, electric cars are way more attractive. They are heavily subsidized; since 2010, California has handed out over $800,000,000 of taxpayer money to put battery-electric, plug-in hybrid, and hydrogen fuel-cell cars on public roads. They offer a $2,000 tax credit in addition to the upwards of $7,500 federal tax credit. There are lots of charging stations. Gas is more expensive than any other state - 50% more expensive than the cheapest states on average. All these combine to make it have more sense there than a state with no state tax credits, fewer charging stations, and cheap gasoline.
 

bstnh1

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I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.

I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when in comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.

I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.
Do you have generator for those times when the power goes out?
 

David Clark

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Does look like there's a lot more inefficiencies in the process than most people think.
LOL, seems you think that gas grows on trees and doesn't take electricity to produce.
How much oil is burned at the Electricity Plant to provide the energy equivalent to charge your EV? Well you do gooders, it takes roughly 40% more fuel to burn to make the electricity to charge you EV to go the same miles using gasoline. Do if you use 14 gallons of gas for your car to go 100 miles in you gasoline powered car you would burn, at the electric plant 14 gallons of oil. So how are you reducing polution? Please explain!. Not to mention, how do they get rid of the dead batteries? Oh Yeah. They haven't figured that out yet!
Fantastic, in your Denier Science you make the assumption that no electricity is used to make gasoline. What you figure that they just pour gas out of the barrel of oil? Amazing. Maybe you should leave the science to the scientist. Like getting COVID shots, got questions about shots? Go ask your doctor. That is who you are going to go see first if you get sick with COVID. Stop looking backward and look forward, most of the World does.
 

gmiele01

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Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?
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Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?
Here you go Look at the data fossil fuels to electricity way at at he bottom Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency The table shows the theoretical efficiency of converting various energy sources by a variety of methods into useful electrical energy. Solar Panels have NO disposal plan! And eventually they go bad as they have already, AND the are toxic as they slowly run off into our water aquifers. That sounds healthy. GAS is NOT great, but it is less evil that what is needed, wasted and contaminated by present day electric vehicles! I wish there was an answer, but it is not todays electric solution.
 

bstnh1

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Years ago Ford recalled 1.5 million Pintos because people were blowing up in their cars due to fuel tank location in the event of a crash. All cars have problems, the user need to apply a little common sense.
Common sense? Common sense won't tell you your gas tank will probably blow up if you're in an accident, nor will it tell you there's a good chance your house might burn down if you park your car in the garage.
 

sour_grapes

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Here you go Look at the data fossil fuels to electricity way at at he bottom Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency The table shows the theoretical efficiency of converting various energy sources by a variety of methods into useful electrical energy.
This is a meaningless comparison. "Efficiency" is the ratio of output energy to input energy. But the denominators in the two cases you are referring to (fossil vs. solar) are completely different.

The denominator for solar is incoming solar radiation, which, as you may recognize, is coming in all the time without intervention.

The denominator for fossil fuels is something that you went and dug out of the ground and burned, after it had accumulated there for hundreds of millions of years, and cannot be replenished.

I am not sure what comparing those ratioes has to do with anything. Do you?
 
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LOL I hope this thread goes on forever.
I hope it doesn't devolve into an ugly version of what it was. Seems typical of social media; take a good and robust discussion/debate and try to ruin it by attacking the people and not the arguments. I certainly don't believe "gas grows on trees", but there is still no agreement on exactly how oil is formed.

But speaking of trees ;) , I try not to miss the forest for the trees. Every energy production method will have pros and cons, and each will also have unintended and unexpected consequences. I would enjoy debating anyone on either side of any of them.
 

geek

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Do you have generator for those times when the power goes out?
Nope. Battery pack lasts for a few days, although never needed it that long, thank mighty God.
 

bstnh1

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Nope. Battery pack lasts for a few days, although never needed it that long, thank mighty God.
I would think that if we progress to nearly 100% electric vehicles that generators would have to become pretty commonplace in order to maintain some degree of normalcy during prolonged power outages of 3 or 4 days which are not that rare up here. I've relied on my gasoline driven buggy to get me to a pizza place, grocery store, etc. a few towns over when power was out. Of course the need for a generator begs the question what will power it? Right now they're mostly gasoline with a small percentage of propane. Oh well, wood heat and kerosene lanterns are always an option - assuming kerosene is still available. I've done that before, many times!!
 

wood1954

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As the earth was created billions of years ago by asteroids smashing into one another doesn’t it seem likely that some of the asteroids were made up of various gases and volatile liquids creating fuel for us. Which makes it even worse for climate change, as Dino fuel was made after earth formed and is part of the carbon cycle, whereas asteroid chemicals were always locked away till we started digging them up.
 

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