Cabernet sauvignon wine from grapes and juice questions

[corinth]

I ordered some Cabernet Sauvignon from my local winery in San Pedro. I was just called and I was told the order will be in this Friday . I asked if I could order the grapes only and I was told no as they will be juicing them in the morning and already have all the juice sold and probably no fresh grapes.
A. I also asked if I could have an extra 20 lbs of the grapes in addition to the juice as someone on the forum said they often add grapes to the juice to gain the tannin from the juice.
1. I asked if that was possible and they said they would check and when I come in on Friday, noon, they will have an answer for me.
B. There was something I read(sorry) that confused me.
1. something about fermenting the grapes separately from the juice?
2. Could I not just combine them since it will be mainly juice and If I am lucky , some extra grapes?
a. I guess from what I have read about cold soaking(below), that may not be an option since one is juice and the other whole grapes.
b. I will not know until I get there tomorrow and see what the owner says.
c. What if i can get mainly both and about 15 or 20 lbs of grapes still on their stems?
C. Recommendations and questions. All of the below I have read so I won't start out with "I read.."
1.Often times, the grapes are allowed to soak or is it cold soak to allow temp before addition of yeast of before fermentations begins on its own for what reason?
a. "Benefit is building the flavor of the juice and attaining extraction ahead of time to make richer wine. there has been some SO2 added to the must before the cold soak starts to knock back any bad guys trying to get in.Cold soak at 55 degreees for a few days but add K-meta (update from another website)"
2. The brix should be about 23 to 24, with a ph of 3.15- 3.85 and a total acidity .5 to about .9 grams per 100ml
3. Add K-meta 12-24 hours ahead and pectin enzyme 12 hours before.
4. Is fermaid O superior(more organic) since it does not contain DAP while another thread said DAP based would be good for grapes but not if we are dealing with pure juice?
5. Start with an SG of 1.095 or higher .Ferment to 1.010 and rack.
6. Yeast is either Ec-118, Pasteur red or montrachet? I have not yet looked up the temperature ranges but I would tend to go with a yeast that tolerates higher temps 'cause I live in southern California.
5. Temperature below 90 which would work well in southern California.
6. what is pressing to dryness?
7.Pressing to dryness and When the brix drops to 5, the grapes should be pressed?
a."Do slight press to get juice out. Press before dryness (2-6 Brix) to lock in fruit flavors and have a softer wine (versus a more complex wine if wait until dry) Leaving it on the seeds and skins longer will extract more tannin that will give you the dryness you are after(update from other website).
Spike at 85 on days 1 and 2 and finish up around 80-82 on reds. You can also spike at the end of the fermentation to ensure it finished dry otherwise you could add some tannin powder before fermentation and press as you are doing at 5 brix
Seeds:you should munch on a couple of the seeds to get some idea about the flavors that may be transferred to your wine.? If your seeds are not fully ripe, then you may want to press early(update from other websites)"

7. Racking within a few days of pressing is a good thing. What Sg should this be?
8. Oaking with powder in the beginning (????)of the fermentation or adding medium or higher oak cubes in secondary? French, American or Hungarian. 5 Oz per five gallons seem reasonable in secondary but check for taste?I tend to want to use a heavy french toasted oak in the secondary fermentor??
9.omitted since it is too early fro that questions
I left off quite a bit of detail but a lot of this does make sense to me until someone says;except in this situation!" I wanted some feedback to get myself started.
PS: Yes, I know I left off the option of Malo-lactic fermentation but I am still reading and will post some questions before I am reeady. I just want to have some of my ducks are in a row and not feel like I am trying to load jack rabbits onto a flat car!
PPS: I know I posted this last night but I guess I did not press the right button at the right time.
I apologize for all the questions but they just called me yesterday afternoon .
Again, lot of questions but any feedback would be greatly appreciated
sincerely,
Corinth

 

[ibglowin]

Have you downloaded the Morewine Guide to making red wines pdf?

Very good guidelines to follow!

 

[corinth]

cabernet-sauvignon-wine-grapes-juice-question

Yes I have printed the whole thing out and looking it over and other books but I still have many questions. Since the original post I have updated what I have found on doing searches but some questions remain.
Again, I apologize for the length so any ...I mean any one area anyone wants to enlighten me would be appreciated.
should I have broken it up into separate posts?
Sorry,
Corinth

 

[Turock]

corinth---You asked me to take a look at this so here's some thoughts for you. I have never done a cold soak, so I would depend on the info of others who have experience with this technique because I do not.

It's very hard to say exactly where you should set the PH. I would do some bench trials to see what tastes the best to you. But be careful about being low--because there are only a couple MLB's that can handle a PH of 3.1 and be careful about getting the PH too high because the MLF reduces acid. This wine is really fabulous after the MLF--so I would learn MLF and do it on this wine. Google MLF--there's lots of white paper on it. Read and follow the directions.

I would suggest that you use RC212 yeast. It's a great yeast for these big reds and easy for a beginning winemaker to use. Other yeast like BM45 or BM4x4 have long lag times and since you are just getting your feet on the ground maybe it's a good idea to keep things simpler for you so you aren't trying to learn one hundred new techniques all in one wine! I would say you don't want to use Montrachet on this wine. We've used lots of RC212 and it's a nice yeast--you'll be happy with it.

On the Fermaid O--you can use this nutrient before pitching the yeast. It is suggested to use this on must 24 hours before pitching the yeast if cold soaking. And if you decide not to cold soak, pitch the Fermaid O just before pitching the yeast. Then switch over to Fermaid K and add 1/2 addition when the cap establishes itself and 2nd half at 25% sugar depletion. At 1/3 sugar depletion you can make a DAP addition if the fermentation seems slow. Don't be afraid of DAP. Ferments go smoother when you have a combination of organic and inorganic nitrogen.

Oaking the primary gives different taste profiles than doing it in the secondary. I think this takes some experience to know exactly what to use. I would discourage you from trying to learn 5 or 10 years of experience all in one ferment. Keep things more simple for yourself so you don't get so over-whelmed. Some nice medium french toast PLUS in the form of a stave or spiral in the secondary will give you a result you will love. And you can then skip the primary oak addition until you get more practice with it.

You should ferment to dry, rack the lees off 24 hrs. later then go into MLF. Watch your sulfite--you should be right around 20PPM of total SO2 so that the MLF goes smoothly.

Anything else? Don't be afraid to ask.

 

[ibglowin]

All great advice from Turock. Morewine also has a guide to MLF as well. There is no evidence that cold soaking does anything to make a wine come out better. If you are having trouble getting the chemistry adjusted (if needed) you can buy some time with a little dry ice addition that will drop your must temps way down and give you more time to figure things out. Like said, watch your pH and SO2 addition up front otherwise getting MLF to start can be difficult.

 

[JohnT]

See my comment below

I ordered some Cabernet Sauvignon from my local winery in San Pedro. I was just called and I was told the order will be in this Friday . I asked if I could order the grapes only and I was told no as they will be juicing them in the morning and already have all the juice sold and probably no fresh grapes.
A. I also asked if I could have an extra 20 lbs of the grapes in addition to the juice as someone on the forum said they often add grapes to the juice to gain the tannin from the juice.
1. I asked if that was possible and they said they would check and when I come in on Friday, noon, they will have an answer for me.
B. There was something I read(sorry) that confused me.
1. something about fermenting the grapes separately from the juice?
2. Could I not just combine them since it will be mainly juice and If I am lucky , some extra grapes?

I would combine them. I think that the extraction of tannins and color will be better.

a. I guess from what I have read about cold soaking(below), that may not be an option since one is juice and the other whole grapes.

I do not think that an extended cold soak (beyond 24 hours) will be needed in your case.


b. I will not know until I get there tomorrow and see what the owner says.
c. What if i can get mainly both and about 15 or 20 lbs of grapes still on their stems?

I would endeavor to remove the stems, even if by hand.


C. Recommendations and questions. All of the below I have read so I won't start out with "I read.."
1.Often times, the grapes are allowed to soak or is it cold soak to allow temp before addition of yeast of before fermentations begins on its own for what reason?

The main reasons they do this is to extend the time that the wine macerates on the skins (for reds) and/or to allow some of the pulp/initial sediment to be racked off (for red and white) and/or to allow any initial k-meta dose to dissipate. I normally do not do this for 24 hours only.



a. "Benefit is building the flavor of the juice and attaining extraction ahead of time to make richer wine. there has been some SO2 added to the must before the cold soak starts to knock back any bad guys trying to get in.Cold soak at 55 degreees for a few days but add K-meta (update from another website)"


2. The brix should be about 23 to 24, with a ph of 3.15- 3.85 and a total acidity .5 to about .9 grams per 100ml

I think that an acidity of .9 is too high, especially for reds.

3. Add K-meta 12-24 hours ahead and pectin enzyme 12 hours before.

I go for a full 24 hours. If the k-meta is still present, it could keep the yeast from taking hold. My musts sit open (no lids, just loosely covered with plastic tarp) for 24 hours before yeast is pitched. I would not really call this a cold soak as the must sits at room temp and I use this time to warm the must to 68 or 70 degrees.

4. Is fermaid O superior(more organic) since it does not contain DAP while another thread said DAP based would be good for grapes but not if we are dealing with pure juice?

Not sure about that. I do not use fermaid O.

5. Start with an SG of 1.095 or higher .Ferment to 1.010 and rack.

I would wait until you are close to 1.000.

6. Yeast is either Ec-118, Pasteur red or montrachet? I have not yet looked up the temperature ranges but I would tend to go with a yeast that tolerates higher temps 'cause I live in southern California.

Trust me, IMHO all of those strains are incorrect for a cabernet. Yes, they will ferment, and yes, will produce a good wine, but (again IMHO) you should go with RC 212 for a cab. That strain brings a lot of nice flavors to the party.


5. Temperature below 90 which would work well in southern California.

I agree, but would also say that if your temps spike above 90, I would not be alarmed.

6. what is pressing to dryness?

HMMMM.. Not sure, perhaps they mean that after pressing, all you are left with is a dry "cake" of grape skins?

7.Pressing to dryness and When the brix drops to 5, the grapes should be pressed?

a."Do slight press to get juice out. Press before dryness (2-6 Brix) to lock in fruit flavors and have a softer wine (versus a more complex wine if wait until dry) Leaving it on the seeds and skins longer will extract more tannin that will give you the dryness you are after

OK, I see now. They are talking about residual sugar. For reds, I press when wine is close to 1.0 specific gravity (I press dry).

(update from other website).
Spike at 85 on days 1 and 2 and finish up around 80-82 on reds. You can also spike at the end of the fermentation to ensure it finished dry otherwise you could add some tannin powder before fermentation and press as you are doing at 5 brix
Seeds:you should munch on a couple of the seeds to get some idea about the flavors that may be transferred to your wine.? If your seeds are not fully ripe, then you may want to press early(update from other websites)"

Sheeeesh! For me, spiking occurs naturally on day 3 or 4. Do not bother with the seeds. You do not have that many to worry about being that you are mostly pail juice. I would hold off on the tannin powder and add later if needed. You may pick up enough depending on the grapes.

7. Racking within a few days of pressing is a good thing. What Sg should this be?

I would strongly agree with this. this is to remove the gross lees (spent yeast) as soon as possible. Your wine should be fully fermented at this point and the wine should be beginning to clear. What I tell people is to rack as soon as a definable sediment layer is visible.

8. Oaking with powder in the beginning (????)of the fermentation or adding medium or higher oak cubes in secondary? French, American or Hungarian. 5 Oz per five gallons seem reasonable in secondary but check for taste?I tend to want to use a heavy french toasted oak in the secondary fermentor??

IMHO the bigger, the better with oak. Would go with 4 oz of cubes after the second racking for 4 to 6 weeks. If it needs more oak, you can always add.

9.omitted since it is too early fro that questions

I left off quite a bit of detail but a lot of this does make sense to me until someone says;except in this situation!" I wanted some feedback to get myself started.
PS: Yes, I know I left off the option of Malo-lactic fermentation but I am still reading and will post some questions before I am reeady. I just want to have some of my ducks are in a row and not feel like I am trying to load jack rabbits onto a flat car!
PPS: I know I posted this last night but I guess I did not press the right button at the right time.
I apologize for all the questions but they just called me yesterday afternoon .
Again, lot of questions but any feedback would be greatly appreciated
sincerely,
Corinth

 

[corinth]

cabernet-sauvignon-wine-grapes-juice-question

Some great advice from all of you.
Yes, I do have some follow-up questions(naturally)
Turock
1.At present, I do not have fermaid O or fermaid K but it is on order but I doubt that it will get here soon enough. I will see what I can do.
2." Turock,You should ferment to dry,(how Dry) rack the lees off 24 hrs. later then go into MLF. Watch your sulfite--you should be right around 20PPM of total SO2 so that the MLF goes smoothly." I read somewhere that in fermentation should not be complete before you start your MLF. Are you referring to dry like 1.000, which still has a tiny bit of fermentation to go before it goes super dry--or am I really off here.
3. I have made a list of various types of MLBacteria cultures and do not know which one or ones would be best for me to use? recommendations.
Ibeglowin. I printed out the handout for MLF from more wine and am going through it very carefully along with others-thanks. Oh, yeah. Dry ice! I have started to read about that-interesting stuff!
Hi John T. As of now, I still do not know what I will be getting but combining them sounds good to me.
1.Are you saying that the "cold soak " is mainly for whole grapes only and when you have done it, you keep them cold for about 24 hours?
2."OK, I see now. They are talking about residual sugar. For reds, I press when wine is close to 1.0 specific gravity (I press dry). Are you saying that you do not press the grapes at all until the SG is at 1.000? But since I will not or may not get any grapes
a. should I do the same--press lightly and let them ferment?
3. I assume you mean about 5 0z of medium toast french or heavy toast french in the secondary. I will probably put it in and taste every week or so.
4. John T. I did not make a lot of responses to many of your comments because I understood what you said and agreeeeeeeed!!!
Joeswine: Joe suggested that even if I do not get any real grapes, he will guide me to create an f-pac(yes, I PM'd a lot of folks .
I know I will have more questions but I will try to create some new posts so anyone who wants to gain from your expertise can go there.
I need a nap...and my retirement check!
Thank you all so much for all your time and all the detail
You guys should teach a affordable course at a local college on line. I think community colleges would love the revenue and all the software is already in place. There I go again. time to zip-it
I need a nap
Corinth

 

[JohnT]

Corinth,

Let me say that I find your enthusiasm delightful!!!!

A couple of points here.

* when it comes to MLF, I have had a disaster once when I added the bacteria way too soon. There is a risk, albeit a slight one, that MLB can acetify your wine when in the presence of sugar. I wait until the very moment that the wine SG drops to around .998 or so before I add the MLB. Some may disagree with this, but it has worked out very well for me in the past.

Pressing - The game plan here is for the wine to extract as much of that tannic goodness from the few skins you are adding. The longer you have the wine sit on the skins, the better. I would keep them on the skins until sg of 1.0 then press the whole thing.

Oak - not knowing just how oaky you like your wine, I feel 4oz a great starting point. You can always oak again if you want it more oaky.

Cold soak - Ok, let me clear something up here and tell you what I consider a cold soak.

For white wines, most winemakers do not ferment on the skins. The game here is to go light on tannins to make (what I consider) a less bitter wine. Most every white wine that I have enjoyed has been pressed immediately right after crushing. Even better (and the technique I use) is to toss the white grapes directly into press without crushing them, and apply long/slow pressure.

Another step winemakers take is to chill the white juice down and allow the particulates (pulp, etc) to settle and be rack out after a period of time. This is done while the juice is cold and prior to fermentation. This period of time is what I call a cold soak and (IMHO) really does make a difference.

After the cold soak, the juice is brought back up to temp and yeast is then pitched. This warm up period also allows for any added k-meta to drop to a favorable level.

For reds, some also chill red must down (while sitting on the skins) to allow for a longer extraction of color and tannins. I do not feel that this is really worth it because chilling the juice will reduce its solubility and extraction is minor at best. Alcohol is a great solvent and you will find the color develop a lot better during fermentation.

In either case (red or white), I add my k-meta immediately after pressing the whites and immediately after crush/destem of reds (both prior to fermentation). In either case I wait 24 hours to allow the k-meta to do its "thang" and to dissipate before I add my yeast. I do not really think of this 24 hour period as a "cold soak".

Hope that I did not ramble to much and made some sense.

 

[Turock]

Believe me--it is better to complete the primary fermentation before going into MLF. It's important to get the gross lees off the wine first which can, sometimes, lead to H2S issues. So you want the wine off the lees because, remember, that it can take around 2 months to complete an MLF and you don't want to be stirring up those stinky lees along with the MLB. Let the wine complete the primary fermentation---1.000 or less.

As long as you don't end up with a very low PH, there are many MLB's you can use. We like Bacchus because it always completes without problems. If you end up around 3.1 PH, there are only a couple MLB's you can use. However, I would steer you away from White Labs cultures. Many people have trouble with it completing. We used it one time only--and couldn't get it to complete so we had to go back and reinoculate with Bacchus.

Fermaid K would be fine for the entire ferment. I wouldn't even be afraid of using all DAP if that's the only thing you have. You'll discover that when you are in the planning stages of a ferment, that you should always be sure you have the nutrient on hand that you intend to use, along with the culture.

You do not need an f-pac on this wine. Every year we get a juice bucket only of Cab--no grapes with it. It turns out so great with only an MLF. Don't get into too much manipulation with this wine--more is not better. After the MLF and a dose of sulfite, you will bulk age this for 1 year (and oak it while in the secondary), then bottle and let it bottle age another 1-2 years. You can open a bottle along the way and I'm pretty sure you'll be impressed with the results. We do 6 gallons of this wine every year--it is so smooth and robust. You don't even know that you're drinking a dry wine.

 

[Turock]

corinth---here's another bit of info for you on EC-1118 that I neglected to talk about. You would NEVER use this culture when you are planning an MLF because it produces high levels of SO2--not good for trying to complete an MLF!

Check out the french medium toast PLUS oak. We used it on the Cab and are very happy with the result. I agree that this wine can handle big oak. We used spirals in the secondary.

 

[Turock]

Regarding what John said about SO2 at crush: Because this is a bucket of juice, it will already have sulfite in it. Don't add more or you can inhibit the MLF. All we do with a bucket is test the PH because the juice we get already has the culture (RC212) in it, and step feed nutrient to it. Be sure you know if the bucket has had any additions made to it. If it has the culture in it that you want, you won't even need to pitch yeast. Just test the PH and step-feed nutrient. It CAN be easy peasy and STILL give excellent results.

 

[JohnT]

Agree with turock. I would go further to say that EC1118 is a champagne yeast developed to be a strong fermenter (ideal for fermenting still wine into carbonated champagne). It is not a best choice for still wine in itself. The only time that I would consider it is if I had a stuck fermentation.

As far as oak choices, See the article I wrote several years ago and posted to this forum. Different toasts yield different flavor characteristics.

 

[corinth]

cabernet-sauvignon-wine-grapes-juice-question

Just to bring you all up to speed. They did not have any grapes but did have the wine juice. I bought 4 gallons hoping to make a 3 gallon batch. It was already sulfited but nothing else was added.
There was a yeast another member had mentioned but their delivery is not two business days--oh well.
I checked the Ph and it was 3.8 and the juice itself had a reading of 1.010 so I brought it up to 1.095.
I also added pectic enzyme and twelve hours later and about two hours before I started to hydrate the yeast, I added some fermaid O. I used Go ferm to hydrate the RC2112. was was very careful to acclamate the yeast wine combo(Is there a name for the above?) and spread it over the juice, did not mix and covered it with a towel.

I miss out on anything?
Thanks,
Corinth

 

[Boatboy24]

1.010????? That would likely mean it had already been fermenting. A lot.

 

[corinth]

Cabernet sauvignon wine from grapes and juice questions

I will have to check my notes. He told me that it had nothing added to it, just k-meta. He has always been spot on in the past.I think you are right. I should have followed my gut reaction when in the back of my brain--way back--it kept saying " if this is pure wine juice, why do you need to add so much sugar to it?" Why do i think this will be a problem or one of those wonderful learning(aha moments) experiences. Ok what now. this changes my game plan quite a bit BUT...I will never make this mistake ever again. from now on, I will ask the question at least two or three times and when i get home, I will take the readings.
OK. What are my options now?
Corinth

 

[Turock]

Can you get some more juice and dilute it down? Call your supplier and talk with him--tell him what the SG was when you got it.

 

[corinth]

cabernet-sauvignon-wine-grapes-juice-question

Turock,
I called my supplier and they said they would not be getting any cabernet grapes in for about a week and a half(their guess).He does have more "fermented juice" juice which is at the 1.010. I am wondering if there is another option I can take to salvage what I have and save the MLF for another batch of wine which would be a syrah.

Como puedo ser tan Zurramato in mi chante.(translation: statistical error beyond the 3 % confidence limits)

Corinth

 

[Boatboy24]

You could always buy grapes and ferment separately. Then blend the two batches after fermentation.

 

[Turock]

I like Boatboy's suggestion. And since you live in Calif., it should be easier for you to acquire some Cab grapes if you call around.

 

[corinth]

cabernet-sauvignon-wine-grapes-juice-question

Hi folks,
I will try to get more cabernet grapes within my area. Though I live in California, it is not as easy as I am home winemaker and do not deal in large quantities and wineries are not interested but i will try.
My question returns to my present batch which is at 1.080 and not doing much else. If it stays that high after several days, what could I do to salvage it?


Corinth