Yeast Comparison [EC-1118 vs 71B-1122]

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Time for an update! And what an update it is! Stow all of your preconceptions about the outcome of this test and read on...

The Dragon Bloods are both clear, so I racked them off the sediment a few days ago and sat them infront of my light to compare their color. The picture below does not lie. The wine on the right is definately darker, richer in color! I know you can't read the tags, but try to guess which is which before you read below.

100_1121.jpg


First, I'll tell you all what I discovered, then I'll give you my opinion as to why. But before that, let me again emphasize that I did everything in my power to make these wines side-by-side, exactly the same. Since we all make wines, we understand that certain conditions are beyond our control. For example, I cannot confirm that the exact amount of each fruit (blackberry/blueberry/raspberry) was preasant in each batch. One batch could very well be darker because of the quality or quantity of a particualar fruit in the batch. I did all I could to make this a fair and useable comaprision. Enough about that, though.

Read on...Note: At this point, neither wine has been sweetened.

That's the 71B on the left, and the EC on the right. Aside from the color variation, there was more. I poured a small amount of each wine into two small glasses. Not stating which was which, I presented them to my wife. She's my "second opinion". In this case, she nailed my own observations precisely, without prompting.

COLOR: As far as color goes, you've seen the picture above. The EC produced a wine of deeper color. It showed in the glasses, too. The 71B just looked thinner. At the point where the wine met the glass, the EC version held it's color, and clung more readily to the side than the 71B. The EC produced the characteristic ruby red color I have come to associate with the DB, while the 71B gave the impression of a more subtle blush---like White Zin, my wife said. I agreed.

AROMA: At this point, things became more similar. The 71B produced a nice fruity aroma, with no hint of acid in the nose. Again, very subtle, and very pleasant. The 71B had done it's work! Then came the EC. It had a distinctive scent of fruit and fresh lemon. Much closer to what one would expect from fruit that is both sweet and tart at the same time. Both were very nice to the nose. A plus on both accounts.

TASTE: Then we came down to it. For me, the flavor is everything. The 71B turned out to be very light, with virtually none of the acid "tang" I have come to associate with the my beloved DB. This yeast had most definately worked on the acids during primary fermentation, producing a light fruity wine, easy on the tongue, with a flavor that vanished quickly after tasting. If you like a nice, glossy, white zin with good fruit flavor and no bite, then this is the one for you. On the other hand, the EC produced a wine with more body, bolder character, with a bit of "zing". The acidity was right there with the fruit, declairing the lemon as equal to the rest. It stayed on the tongue longer and produced a lingering after-taste that made me want to snack my lips.

My thoughts: For me (and my wife), this was a no brainer. The EC-1118 produced as it always had; the DB that we have always enjoyed. While not as strong---acidly---as Lon's original Skeeter Pee, the balance it produced in the particular wine was spot-on. Was the 71B-1122 an improvement? Not in my opinion. However, if you find yourself drinking your DB and wishing it was lighter and less acidic, then the 71B might be your answer. But if you are like me, and want your DB with a bit of a tart bite, and a fuller body, then stick with the EC-1118.

Why? As the 71B-1122 is described, it works to recude the acidity in wines where the fruit being used (such as blackberry) has a higher Ph. These acids, I am convinced, are what give the DB it's distinctive color and flavor, working---along with the yeast---to draw more tannins and color from the skins, pulp, and seeds of the fruit. Remove or reduce these acids (as in the action of the 71B), and you reduce this desireable action, producing a paler, smoother, lighter wine. The EC-1118, being the "work horse" of yeasts, thrives in this kind of enviroment; a fact, no doubt, known to our illustrious inventer of the original SP recipe. My hat's off to Lon DePope!

I am still yet to sweeten these batches, but I hardly see where this will change the facts. My plan, if they maintian their individual charaters, is to blend the two batches prior to bottling. If I don't, my wife will ask my every time we open a bottle which one it is. She still wants the original DB, not a whole batch of sudo-white-zin.

I hope this simple study has helped the DB fan base, encouraging those who like the original, and giving hope to those who want a lighter version.

Peace out! :r
 
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Dave........interesting observation. Would like to see you put back 3 bottles of each for 6 to 9 months and see if your opinions on the two changes. Cheers!
 
Dave, very informative..but>>>>>> you used strains of yeast from the same maker, which is good.....
We now know which is the one for giving the various characters of a finished wine.
I would like to see a test using a lalvin and a red star...since those two are the prominent yeast makers.
Lets do a test, from ferment to completion with dated pics.
You using lalvin, me using redstar...just for comparison .
I know you love a challenge...lol
 
I've got both Lavin EC-1118 and Red Star Premier Cuvee on hand. While I appreciate your challenge, it would be hard for us, separately, to keep our techniques and conditions exactly the same. That was what I was striving for in this test. I wanted the variations---if there were any---to come from the action of the yeast alone.

Maybe, if you don't mind me stealing the idea, that's what I should do next; compare the EC-1118 with the Premier Cuvee. Not a bad idea at all. But I still think only one person should do it, to maintain optimal conditions. You can do it if you like. If not, I might give it a go. I'm making DB all the time (I know you are, too), so the more, the merrier! It's going to get drank (or is it "drunk"?).

Ok, Shawn, yours is a good idea, too. I'll bottle several of each before the final blending, store them for six months, then give them a try. I'll revisit this test in March and compare their qualities again.
 
Great reporting, i love reading about your DB. i'm currently using both yeasts on my elderberry wine, the 71b to take care of the harshness of the malic acid and the ec1118 to make sure it finishes fermenting all the way. I couldn't get a good SG reading off the straight juice so estimated the sugar content of the elderberries and added 12 lbs of sugar to about 6 gallons of must. so far so good.
 
Dave, have you measured the acidity of each batch?

If you like the 'zing' from the acidity, i would encourage you to add pure Tartaric to the 71B, to bring it in-line with the acidity of the 1118.

This will show you the differences in 71B & 1118 (and malic vs tartaric), at the acidity that you prefer. With malic being sharper than tartaric, on the palette, you might find that even after adding acidity to the 71B - that it has both the 'zing' you like, but a smoothness not found in the 1118 due to the malic-to-tartaric difference.

I'd be curious in your findings.

Sounds like the 71B is low on acid for your liking anyhow.

For anyone with acid-reflux (like I), 71B may be a better option as well..
 
This is what is great to see on this site. It shows us actual outcomes , not just things picked up on the internet, so we can judge and decide for ourselves what we would like. Thanks Dave!
Also, it proves choosing the right yeast is important on your outcome
 
Nice experiment Dave!

Wood1954, just curious, why couldn't you get a good reading on your elderberry?
 
I have not checked the Ph of either, nor do I ever checked acid levels in my wines. Folks keep telling me I should, but I let my taste buds be the judge. I balance my wines to what I like. That may be a higher or lower Ph prefered by others---or what's recommended---but my wines are made for me, and my lovely wife, Johnna.
 
yes dave , i agree,,, when you get a chance,,, i for one would like to see any comparison of the two yeast mfg..
i have not used any lalvin yeast to date, but plan to purchase some soon.
 
Very interesting Dave. I would have bet everything that the darker one was the 71-B. I have a 2 gallon batch going and it appears to me that mine is darker(like yours on the right) than normal, and I used 71-B this time too. I will keep you posted on how mine goes as 1 of the gallons I am going to add chocolate to and see how that goes.
Maybe in the end, there is no need to "re-create the wheel". :)
 
Julie, i couldn't smash the berries very well because they were so darn small. I gave up and added the water and figured i would mash up the berries with my hands as they fermented and got softer. I didn't feel i got much in the way of juice so i looked up the average sugar content of wild elderberries (7.5%) and 12 lbs of sugar should have made the must about SG1100. After 48 hours i measured SG 1095. i need a better way of mashing the little critters, or maybe after picking them off their frozen stems for 3.5 hours i was just not very patient. It turned out Ok, the juice is way better than my first attempt two years ago.
 
Julie, i couldn't smash the berries very well because they were so darn small. I gave up and added the water and figured i would mash up the berries with my hands as they fermented and got softer. I didn't feel i got much in the way of juice so i looked up the average sugar content of wild elderberries (7.5%) and 12 lbs of sugar should have made the must about SG1100. After 48 hours i measured SG 1095. i need a better way of mashing the little critters, or maybe after picking them off their frozen stems for 3.5 hours i was just not very patient. It turned out Ok, the juice is way better than my first attempt two years ago.
I'm not sure why such an old post came up in my notifications lol, but I got a plastic potato masher and it worked great for my blueberry and blackberry batches lol
 
Thank you for your comments, Jack. I appreciate criticism in all of it's tones.

I think I made it very plain what I am testing. In case you didn't read the OP, I am making two batches of Dragon Blood side-by-side with two different yeasts to see if the outcome shows a favorate. I have made a lot of the DB, and so have many others. I have used EC-1118 in most all of my batches, for years. I do so primarily because of the EC-1118's tolerance levels and rapid fermentation. If there is one place where the EC-1118 shines, it is in the DB recipe. I have used Montrachet, but "bread yeast", IMO, would be a bad choice unless one were making bread, so I have no interest in doing such a pointless comparison. The goal is to improve my recipe, for myself, and for those who like this wine.

You are very right that the DB does not use much fruit. And that is indeed the wonder of this recipe. It's not sophisticated, nor snobbish, nor pretentious. It is a cheap, quick, light wine. But those who like it, like it a lot. It comes out crisp and fruity---inspite of less fruit being used in the must. Beginners can use my recipe to learn to make wine from scratch without the fear of wasting a great deal of money if they fail. Nearly eveyone here who has made the DB as a beginner has gone on to make better wines, and yet still continues to make DB, because eveyone loves it. It is a marvelous thing that has taken on a life of it's own. Dozens of variations now exist, with more being concocted all the time.

Once again, I value your opinion, but I have to ask, "Have you ever made or tasted any Dragon Blood?" While it is true that many people prefer other types of wine, your criticism would hold more weight if you could speak with experiential authority. I'ts cheap and easy. Try a batch. I would cherish your feedback.

Edit: Better yet, PM me your address, and I will send you a couple of bottles to enjoy---or dump out---at your leisure. :pee
Hi DD, I am new to winemaking, but one of my first attempts was your recipe for DDDB (because of the many complimentary posts I have seen on this site). I have to say that I am thrilled with the DB. The taste is wonderful, the color is beautiful, and I am very grateful that you developed this recipe. Be sure and share any new recipes that you develop....................................Dizzy
 
Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you? If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time. Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far. As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right . Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast, and its only garunteed to work if you use bread yeast, if you use wine yeast it wont work, the best yeast is matched to the wine to be made. WVMJ
What is JAOM?....................................Dizzy
 
There was no update after backsweetening. Did that have no effect?
 
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