Yeast Comparison [EC-1118 vs 71B-1122]

[dangerdave]

I am doing a comparison of the Lavin EC-1118 and the Lavin 71B-1122 in a side-by-side Dragon Blood recipe study. I am using the basic DB recipe and presser method, and taking every effort to make these two batches exactly the same except for the different yeasts.

Day 1: (7-25-13) I gathered all of my ingredients...

Each batch got the following...

20 cups of sugar
48oz of Real Lemon Juice
6# of Wayman's Triple Berry Blend (frozen then thawed and placed in a fine mesh nylon bag tied shut) and all the related juices
1 tsp tannin
3 tsp yeast nutrient
1 tsp yeast energizer
3 tsp pectic enzyme
water to six gallons

SG for each was exactly 1.080 @ 70F. The fermenters were covered for overnight resting...

Day 2: Here goes the yeasties! Rehydrated per instructions and stirred into their respective musts (left to right)...

Day 3: Squeezing and stirring begins! Both batches were warm and showed a foamy cap with very active fermentation. SG = 1.065 @ 82F. I removed the heavy blanket and covered them with a lighter one.

Each fruit bag was squeezed equally, and vigorous stirring followed. I cleaned and sanitized all instruments in between batches to avoid cross contamination from the other yeast.

Day 4: Squeeze and stir!
EC-1118 (left) batch was SG = 1.030 @ 80F.
71B-1122 (right) batch was SG = 1.035 @ 80F.
Note: Both batches---aside from the slight SG difference---appeared exactly the same. By all signs (smell, cap, bubbling, etc), they could have been the same yeasts. Ditto. I raised the brew belts a few inches on the buckets to drop the temp slightly as fermentation continues.

Updates to come.

 

[RCGoodin]

What's your gut feeling of the outcome?

 

[seth8530]

Great idea for a study! I bet the 71B will have a lot more fruity flavours while the ec-1118 will end up being more neutral.

 

[ibglowin]

It will be interesting to see how 71B does in the long run. Skeeter Pee is not the easiest thing to ferment out to dry and EC1118 is the Terminator of yeast. 71B is a great yeast and used to soften high acid wines as it will chew on Malic acid as well.

Looking forward to the end results!

 

[jamesngalveston]

dave, i did the exact same test, but used red star montrachet, and red star pasteur red.
i think that the pasteur red gave better color, and overall a better fruit flavor.....
both were started at 1.110, and I let both finish fermenting in primary before i racked.
not sure if these helps..but hope so..somewhere down the line..
thanks

 

[RCGoodin]

Great idea for a study! I bet the 71B will have a lot more fruity flavours while the ec-1118 will end up being more neutral.

Are your predictions from experience, knowledge, or a guess?

 

[seth8530]

My predictions come from stuff I read on yeast. For instance

71B was isolated by Pr. Maugenet’s team at the INRA (National Agricultural Research Institute) in
Narbonne, France. 71B is known for making blush and semi-sweet wines and owes its success to
its abilities to produce amyl ester (isoamyl acetate), reinforcing the aromatic profile of
wines. 71B also softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid (20-30%).

Lower acid and more amyl esters could mean fruitier smells leading to fruitier taste.. Atleast that is my prediction.. Of course nutrient needs and temperatures matter.

 

[jamesngalveston]

here is something for you seth.
figs and plums have more starch then other fruits...
both will heat up during fermentation like to 85 degrees are more.
and both are insanely hard to clear, and both will get starch haze very easily if you let the temp get to 90.
no one ever mentions starch....

 

[loumik]

here is something for you seth.
figs and plums have more starch then other fruits...
both will heat up during fermentation like to 85 degrees are more.
and both are insanely hard to clear, and both will get starch haze very easily if you let the temp get to 90.
no one ever mentions starch....

What does this have to do with Dave's test?

LOUMIK

 

[jamesngalveston]

nothing, just pertains to different yeast mfg, have different properties and out come.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Dave, this a great post, this is the kind of info that can help a lot of people to understand how we can taylor our wines to our own preferences, my hat is off to you.
I'll post my 71B-1122 vs. BM45 test in another thread.

 

[RCGoodin]

My predictions come from stuff I read on yeast. For instance



Lower acid and more amyl esters could mean fruitier smells leading to fruitier taste.. At least that is my prediction.. Of course nutrient needs and temperatures matter.

It surely sounds like 71B does a better job. Is it a harder yeast to get fermentation started? I'm assuming that the Lavlin EC 1118 is an easier yeast to get the fermentation started since it's the yeast that comes with all the kits.

 

[dangerdave]

Well, they're both running neck and neck right now. No problem getting either one started.

I hope that the 71B does improve the fruity esters. I have struggled to find a definitive improvement to the original DB recipe, with little or no success. But I soldier on, and I get to drink all my experiments!

 

[RCGoodin]

Dave, Onward and Upword. I look forward to your findings.

 

[seth8530]

It surely sounds like 71B does a better job. Is it a harder yeast to get fermentation started? I'm assuming that the Lavlin EC 1118 is an easier yeast to get the fermentation started since it's the yeast that comes with all the kits.

Yeah, that and I would not be surprised if it needs more nitrogen than EC 1118.. EC1118 is like tank yeast lol. Will be interesting to see what the 71B does to the acidity.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

What exactly are you testing for DD? You are not challenging either yeast, EC1118 is going to eat EVERYTHING and starve. THere is not much fruit in DB and its going to eat it all. Montrachet vs bread yeast would be a better matching test appropriate for what you are trying to do. Now if you keep adding some more fruit to make it a better wine and drive the SG up a good bit then the EC1118 would shine, but in this case it is not the yeast to use and it wont be happy. WVMJ

 

[dangerdave]

Thank you for your comments, Jack. I appreciate criticism in all of it's tones.

I think I made it very plain what I am testing. In case you didn't read the OP, I am making two batches of Dragon Blood side-by-side with two different yeasts to see if the outcome shows a favorate. I have made a lot of the DB, and so have many others. I have used EC-1118 in most all of my batches, for years. I do so primarily because of the EC-1118's tolerance levels and rapid fermentation. If there is one place where the EC-1118 shines, it is in the DB recipe. I have used Montrachet, but "bread yeast", IMO, would be a bad choice unless one were making bread, so I have no interest in doing such a pointless comparison. The goal is to improve my recipe, for myself, and for those who like this wine.

You are very right that the DB does not use much fruit. And that is indeed the wonder of this recipe. It's not sophisticated, nor snobbish, nor pretentious. It is a cheap, quick, light wine. But those who like it, like it a lot. It comes out crisp and fruity---inspite of less fruit being used in the must. Beginners can use my recipe to learn to make wine from scratch without the fear of wasting a great deal of money if they fail. Nearly eveyone here who has made the DB as a beginner has gone on to make better wines, and yet still continues to make DB, because eveyone loves it. It is a marvelous thing that has taken on a life of it's own. Dozens of variations now exist, with more being concocted all the time.

Once again, I value your opinion, but I have to ask, "Have you ever made or tasted any Dragon Blood?" While it is true that many people prefer other types of wine, your criticism would hold more weight if you could speak with experiential authority. I'ts cheap and easy. Try a batch. I would cherish your feedback.

Edit: Better yet, PM me your address, and I will send you a couple of bottles to enjoy---or dump out---at your leisure.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you? If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time. Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far. As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right . Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast, and its only garunteed to work if you use bread yeast, if you use wine yeast it wont work, the best yeast is matched to the wine to be made. WVMJ

 

[ShelleyDickison]

This last batch I made I used the 71B. I can't give you scientific data but I can tell you I smell more fruit than the last 2 batches I had made. Not sure if that helps. I haven't tasted it yet though.

 

[Deezil]

Hey Dave,

I dunno how I missed this for so long!

Not that I'm not interested in the outcome, but I would be more interested, personally, if more notes were taken. And I'd be even more interested if this experiment led to another. Let me elaborate..

So now, you're basically comparing 71B to 1118, in the same conditions.

Are you tracking the temp differences in the musts, taken at the same intervals? I would guess that 1118, being the bull in a china shop that it is, would get warmer faster and would probably ferment faster, even at the same air temp as 71B.. Increased activity leads to increased heat accumulation, leads to a difference in amount of esters created and contained (not blown away with CO2).. Leads to a different outcome.

How about acidity levels? Are you tracking the change made by 71B's ability to metabolize malic acid vs 1118's inability? This will come into play later, when you try to sweeten each - my gut says it wont take as much sugar to bring the 71B into balance as it will 1118, due to the difference in acidity.

Are you using the same amount/type of yeast nutrient for each yeast?

And that leads me to the "next experiment";
Provided you have a clear winner here..
Because you're so familiar with DB..

I would like to see a "Part Deux"
Repeat this experiment, with the winning yeast

With 1 of the 2, use your normal yeast nutrient program (which is...?)
With the other, use Go-Ferm to rehydrate & Fermaid-O for the fermentation

Then compare those same notes;
Temp
pH/TA
Length of ferment

And more importantly, the sensory impact.
Which has a more pleasant aroma?
Which has a better flavor?
Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?

I have my guesses on how this will all play out, but I'll withhold those in order to maintain a certain amount of unbiased opinions here.. If too many people say the same thing, regardless of what it is, it could skew the results by having Dave interpret things subconsciously, to fit what he would "expect" to happen.

Just some food for thought, Dave.
Will be watching this play out, for sure
Good luck!