Title say it all. What makes winemaking fun for me is that it challenges me in the art department. To make a “very good” wine, what % do you think is science vs. art?
Winemaking: what % science what % art - poll
- Thread starter NorCal
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I think 25% at most is science, the rest is art. I read far too often that folks are adding/reducing acid to hit some magic numbers and far to infrequently about what happens to the taste when acid is added/reduced. I try to take what the grapes give me and go from that with minimal interventions.
I’m an engineer at heart and I adjusted acid my Viognier this year purely based on taste. I still haven’t measured pH. The first time I was “don’t care what the numbers are, this tastes a lot better”. Thus the pole.
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
A lot depends on how much money you spend on the processes. If you have labs to analyze grapes/fruit thoroughly you can eliminate a large number of variables that home wine makers cannot.
But in the end for most hobby wine makers it's a much larger part that is an art or sometimes just an educated guess. Sometimes I think things work out well in spite of our failures.
But in the end for most hobby wine makers it's a much larger part that is an art or sometimes just an educated guess. Sometimes I think things work out well in spite of our failures.
AXIOM
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This is a totally subjective question, but a fun one none the less .... As such, there can be no real and true answer even though some of us may desire a true answer .... The answer is that it depends upon the personality of the participants..... Some folks are analytical/scientifically minded by nature (I am one of them) ... and so they usually get involved in certain physical sciences... Too the mindset of these types of people, everything is scientific, factual, and can eventually be totally understood.... Artistic abilities usually tend to bewilder these types of individuals....... On the other hand, there are loads of people whom are not scientifically minded who can produce wines that are some of the finest the world has ever seen but yet these same people do not understand much of the organic chemistry that is microscopically involved in the creation of their wines...... How can they do that? Let's face it folks, in order to produce wines of any type of quality, the average wine maker usually learns at least a few of the scientific principles of wine, such as acidity, various bacteria, various chemical reactions, yeast, racking techniques, clearing techniques, and on and on etc.... Those techniques I just mentioned ARE SCIENCE although a small subset of the already acquired organic wine knowledge .... I am not talking about cheap wine here..... For producing quality wines the vintner has to at least have a fundamental scientific knowledge of the things I just mentioned.... If not, the amount of quality wines they will produce will be few and far between... On the other hand, you can have all of the knowledge of organic chemistry to be had and still produce a inferior wine........... So, that logically indicates that it takes BOTH in order to produce good wine...... But, as to the degree or percentage (scientific vs Artistic) there can really be no accurate measurement....In short, it takes BOTH but to what degree, I can't accurately say.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
I'd say it is what you make it. I'm finding science helps early on, but it seems to be mostly art after primary fermentation. Like @NorCal , I used to aim for certain numbers. I'm finding I go by taste more often now. Some of that was just my palette getting up to speed. In the presence of uncertainty around what the taste needs, I'd go to numbers.
Flawed poll. You left out any amount for LUCK! LOL
That’s very true. We had a stuck Grenache by mistake that we used to blend in a Rhône blend and it was probably the most liked wine we’ve made.
I strongly disagree with this statement. It seems to be a strawman statement intended to allow you to assert an "on the other hand" counterexample. I know thousands of physical scientists, and cannot think of any who are "bewildered" by the artistic abilities of others.
100% art
I like science but have to say most/ all foods are art. At one time my job was to talk to the old (as patents say “skilled in the art”) folks before they retired or left, figure out rules, try to find a sensor to measure, and give this to an engineer who programmed the PLC. Science only gives a language to put names on a gut feel.
Science operates on formulas to predict what is happening as with a shift in light from a telescope aimed at N galaxy means X. If I did a calculation to estimate the oxygen in the headspace last week it is interesting but the end answer is , , , who cares? This is where the “skilled in the art” stories come in and OK 98 out of 100 people find the concept oxygen is useful. The other 2 make organic wine so the answer is it depends am I looking for organic wine? The more names I have the easier to be happy with the gut feel.
Food systems are extremely complex. One rule is we taste with our eyes before our mouth, ie what the marketing folks put on TV (or friends comments) potentially means more than what I put in a box.
I like science but have to say most/ all foods are art. At one time my job was to talk to the old (as patents say “skilled in the art”) folks before they retired or left, figure out rules, try to find a sensor to measure, and give this to an engineer who programmed the PLC. Science only gives a language to put names on a gut feel.
Science operates on formulas to predict what is happening as with a shift in light from a telescope aimed at N galaxy means X. If I did a calculation to estimate the oxygen in the headspace last week it is interesting but the end answer is , , , who cares? This is where the “skilled in the art” stories come in and OK 98 out of 100 people find the concept oxygen is useful. The other 2 make organic wine so the answer is it depends am I looking for organic wine? The more names I have the easier to be happy with the gut feel.
Food systems are extremely complex. One rule is we taste with our eyes before our mouth, ie what the marketing folks put on TV (or friends comments) potentially means more than what I put in a box.
balatonwine
The Verecund Vigneron
I can not answer this poll.
As everyone can check from my bio -- i am an American living in Hungary.
When I first came here, 20 years ago, I came with my refractometer, my hydrometer, my pH meter, and I found I was simply the crazy foreigner who used such tools. Wine making was as art here. Pure and simple.
Today, things are changing. More a science. More tools.
So is wine making an art or a science?
Well, to me it depends. Art is something you learn, over years. Maybe decades. From a master. Science is something one can simply measure and learn from a bit of terse education.
So wine making can be 100% an art. Or 100% a science. Or something in between. I don't think there is any correct answer.
But, I admit, now, 20 years later, I seem to look nostalgic more and more on the art side, as I use my tools less and less. But I doubt I will ever become a pure artist, as I expect I will always need to test my grapes. Not just squeeze one between my fingers, look at the seeds, taste it and say "time to harvest". I will need to still measure the brix and pH or TA. I just never had the opportunity to learn from a master.
As everyone can check from my bio -- i am an American living in Hungary.
When I first came here, 20 years ago, I came with my refractometer, my hydrometer, my pH meter, and I found I was simply the crazy foreigner who used such tools. Wine making was as art here. Pure and simple.
Today, things are changing. More a science. More tools.
So is wine making an art or a science?
Well, to me it depends. Art is something you learn, over years. Maybe decades. From a master. Science is something one can simply measure and learn from a bit of terse education.
So wine making can be 100% an art. Or 100% a science. Or something in between. I don't think there is any correct answer.
But, I admit, now, 20 years later, I seem to look nostalgic more and more on the art side, as I use my tools less and less. But I doubt I will ever become a pure artist, as I expect I will always need to test my grapes. Not just squeeze one between my fingers, look at the seeds, taste it and say "time to harvest". I will need to still measure the brix and pH or TA. I just never had the opportunity to learn from a master.
I’d agree with this. The only place that I am all about the numbers with food is internal temperature. I cook with a thermometer because I want to cook most meats to the minimal safe temperature because IMO most people tend to overcook meat to be on the safe side.
I didn’t know that I liked pork until I was 30 years old. I just assumed I didn’t like it because growing up my mom always cooked it to a nice leather texture!
Great topic @NorCal
Sounds like defining the art varies a lot. finding the right balance of science and feel (art) is in fact art in itself to some. Or as @balotonwine has seen with he opinions of winemaking “purists”
As a kid watching and helping the old timers in my family make wine— they were certainly artists in my eyes. No tools. No measuring of anything. In their minds there was zero science involved!
I’d ask questions that technically should have scientific responses -like, “why do we crank the green grapes into the squisher but take the squisher away to crank the purple grapes?”
But no science in the answers. “This juice already has the perfect color. But that juice needs help to turn into a beautiful red”. (The Italian accents may have swayed my view lol).
Knowing the ph, TA, or even ABV was never a thought. And everything was by ‘feel’. They were artists to me at least.
But now as an adult with some experience and learning the science, I don’t think it’s too different. Using it to create art is art IMO. If you add tartaric pre AF to lower ph while also accounting for TA and where it ends up after the addition- accounting for movement from AF, then lowered more from MLF, and having the know-how to land on a desirable tasting amount of acid in the finish? Id call you a scientific artist. Or maybe an artistic scientist? Can’t decide [emoji3]
Sounds like defining the art varies a lot. finding the right balance of science and feel (art) is in fact art in itself to some. Or as @balotonwine has seen with he opinions of winemaking “purists”
As a kid watching and helping the old timers in my family make wine— they were certainly artists in my eyes. No tools. No measuring of anything. In their minds there was zero science involved!
I’d ask questions that technically should have scientific responses -like, “why do we crank the green grapes into the squisher but take the squisher away to crank the purple grapes?”
But no science in the answers. “This juice already has the perfect color. But that juice needs help to turn into a beautiful red”. (The Italian accents may have swayed my view lol).
Knowing the ph, TA, or even ABV was never a thought. And everything was by ‘feel’. They were artists to me at least.
But now as an adult with some experience and learning the science, I don’t think it’s too different. Using it to create art is art IMO. If you add tartaric pre AF to lower ph while also accounting for TA and where it ends up after the addition- accounting for movement from AF, then lowered more from MLF, and having the know-how to land on a desirable tasting amount of acid in the finish? Id call you a scientific artist. Or maybe an artistic scientist? Can’t decide [emoji3]
This cracked me up because this was my life too. "Never eat pink pork". Drummed in since childhood, but actually wrong. There hasn't been a case of commercial pork trichinosis in 50+ years so it OK to eat it pink.
Back to the question as a relatively new winemaker, I'm still working on the science. More testing, more experiments. Getting the details right. Maybe in my old age I'll have mastered the art.
But let me just say, even for you artistic types, wine making is mostly science. Just don't be blinded by it!
-Getting to great grapes: Science (Clone, planting, irrigation, pest control, etc)
-When to pick (24 brix+): Science
-Sulfite: Science
-Yeast strain to use: Science with options
-Acid balance: Science
-Sanitary procedures: Science
-Yeast Nutrients: Science
-Fermentation: Science
-Pressing when dry: Science
-MLF: Science
-Aging: Art plus some no oxygen science
-Oak if any: Art
-Drinking with food: All art
I would argue that the discipline of making good wine is all science. But making great wine is artistic.
-Getting to great grapes: Science (Clone, planting, irrigation, pest control, etc)
-When to pick (24 brix+): Science
-Sulfite: Science
-Yeast strain to use: Science with options
-Acid balance: Science
-Sanitary procedures: Science
-Yeast Nutrients: Science
-Fermentation: Science
-Pressing when dry: Science
-MLF: Science
-Aging: Art plus some no oxygen science
-Oak if any: Art
-Drinking with food: All art
I would argue that the discipline of making good wine is all science. But making great wine is artistic.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Here's my take, just for the sake of argument:
Getting to great grapes: agree
When to pick: when to pick can significantly come down to style, weather (Ok, maybe that's science), schedule, etc.
Sulfite: Science, yes. But deciding not to add any so you're organic? Art.
Yeast: Almost 100% art, but in some cases science based on ABV tolerance, temps, etc.
Acid balance: I'd argue art, based on taste. While you want to be in certain ranges, your end point can vary drastically based on what you want.
Sanitation: Oh yeah, I agree on science.
Nutrients: Agree - mostly science, but I'll usually add based on the aromas I'm getting during fermentation - that's art.
Fermentation: not sure what you mean here, aside from measuring the sugar present - but I agree on that, it is all measurements.
Pressing: Based on many factors, but usually some measure of sugar. Some will soak longer or shorter, based on extraction goals, etc.
MLF: determining whether it has occurred is science, but deciding whether or not to do it is all art.
Aging, oak, pairing: all art
Everybody is wrong but me! [emoji6]
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I voted 50/50 but in all honesty I have to agree that it’s mostly art
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I also am an engineer by training (lo these many years ago, don't ask me to do any math but simple algebra). And for a few years worked in two very measurement industry, the oil industry and robotic automation in aerospace manufacturing. But now, I write software for a living and that is more art than science, often. So I am learning to embrace the don't worry about measurement, let the art come through. And I have a wife that very much leans on the does it taste good, leave it alone and don't worry about the numbers your fancy calculations give you. I do check sg, ph, ta, mlf completion, but then make decisions based on how do things taste??
Scooter68
Fruit "Wine" Maker
Growing and selecting the fruit for wine is probably one of the most difficult things to control.
Hitting your soil with all the right chemicals doesn't stop the weather from changing the outcome. Not just killing a crop but influencing the crops quality. Unless you grow under a dome, science can only take you so far there.
Then once those variable quality fruits are tested and processed the outcome can be controlled to a large degree by "science" but then that take away a lot of the enjoyment for many folks. The numbers and science emersed folks might enjoy that level of control but there is still a lot to be said for the wonders of the process.
If science could control it all, then there would be no need or purpose for different wineries to produce wine. It could all be handed over to massive companies for production as Corn and Wheat and so many other crops have had done to them.
I for one enjoy that there are so many variables in wine making that allows us to have competitions and share different experiences. Otherwise it would be like discussing "the mystery of the multiplication tables." in a math club. Woweee - not
Hitting your soil with all the right chemicals doesn't stop the weather from changing the outcome. Not just killing a crop but influencing the crops quality. Unless you grow under a dome, science can only take you so far there.
Then once those variable quality fruits are tested and processed the outcome can be controlled to a large degree by "science" but then that take away a lot of the enjoyment for many folks. The numbers and science emersed folks might enjoy that level of control but there is still a lot to be said for the wonders of the process.
If science could control it all, then there would be no need or purpose for different wineries to produce wine. It could all be handed over to massive companies for production as Corn and Wheat and so many other crops have had done to them.
I for one enjoy that there are so many variables in wine making that allows us to have competitions and share different experiences. Otherwise it would be like discussing "the mystery of the multiplication tables." in a math club. Woweee - not
