To sanitize or not, is there a compromise?

[shanek17]

What do yall think ? sanitizing seems to be the biggest concern among many home brewers whether making wine or beer. And I notice that some people begin obsessing and stressing over sanitizing. I am beginning to see both perspectives on this subject and Id like to here your thoughts on it. Do the yeast have natural strength to keep things good? Does the alcohol percentage and other beneficial ingredients help to keep things good and in balance?

I watch this video recently and this is what helped me see the other perspective on the matter.


brew bannana beer - for all the sanitizing freaks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fb-JwtE4Lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[GreginND]

I've talked about this before. Wine has the right levels of alcohol and acid to prevent bacteria that are harmful to us from growing in it. It is very forgiving. Other bacteria, while not harmful to us, can spoil wine and judicious levels of SO2 in the must and wine are best to protect it. Given that, I find it wholly unnecessary to obsessively sanitize every bucket, spoon, etc with sanitizer solution as long as they are CLEAN. For crying out loud, we don't wash all our grapes in sulfite before we crush them. We take them from the field and dump them into the crusher. How will a clean hand or clean spoon be worrisome?

I wash everything well with hot soapy water, sometimes with sanitizers or even bleach when I put them away. When I get out my equipment I will rinse well with hot water. Rarely do I rinse with sanitizer. In 12 years I've never had a spoiled batch.

I haven't made beer but I believe you need to be much more strict in your sanitation because beer is lower in acid and lower in alcohol creating an environment which is more prone to bacterial growth.

 

[oldwhiskers]

I don't go overboard like some that I have seen that think they have to be as sterile as a laboratory, but I make sure everything is clean and I use a spray bottle with a StarSan solution to spray everything down before use. So far I have not had a problem, probably the biggest thing to do is to clean everything well after each use.

 

[DoctorCAD]

If you DO get a "bad" batch, you will curse yourself up and down while sitting on that toilet in extreme pain!

 

[Bartman]

I agree with Greg. In the five+ years I have been making wine (between 500 and 600 gallons in 3-6 gallon batches), I have had -0- ruined or 'bad' batches from sanitizing-related issues (two disappointing batches that had to do with degassing and sediment removal), and I rely on city-sanitized tap water (which I drink directly) to keep things sanitary 'enough'. For example, when fermenting fresh grapes or with a grape pack, I don't sanitize the stirring spoon I use every day - I wash it with hot water before and after stirring and let it air dry.

In those 5+ years, I have had several occasions to sit on the toilet DoctorCAD refers to from eating bad food at restaurants - but I haven't stopped eating out either!

 

[GreginND]

I'm not worried at all about anything in wine being harmful to me. I am mostly concerned about wine spoilage microbes. Judicious use of SO2 in the wine will keep them at bay. Wine is not sterile, equipment is not sterile, even if we obsessively rinse with sanitizer. I don't think anyone submerges everything in bleach right before their wine touches it. As long as you keep things CLEAN, sanitary and the wine itself has sufficient levels of sulfite I can't imagine it having any problems from microbes.

 

[robie]

I agree with Greg. In the five+ years I have been making wine (between 500 and 600 gallons in 3-6 gallon batches), I have had -0- ruined or 'bad' batches from sanitizing-related issues (two disappointing batches that had to do with degassing and sediment removal), and I rely on city-sanitized tap water (which I drink directly) to keep things sanitary 'enough'. For example, when fermenting fresh grapes or with a grape pack, I don't sanitize the stirring spoon I use every day - I wash it with hot water before and after stirring and let it air dry.

In those 5+ years, I have had several occasions to sit on the toilet DoctorCAD refers to from eating bad food at restaurants - but I haven't stopped eating out either!

Some of those people who text while they drive have also been doing it for years and never had a single problem...

What's so wrong about following proven, sanitation procedures? It's not expensive, it's not hard, and it works.

 

[GreginND]

What's so wrong about following proven, sanitation procedures? It's not expensive, it's not hard, and it works.

Didn't mean to imply not to follow proven sanitation procedures. I just think some folks get overly obsessed with sanitation to the point of overkill. Clean and dry equipment is generally sanitary enough for wine. That's all.

What I see over and over are people getting all anxious and worried about their wine if the forgot to rinse their spoon with some sanitizer before stirring their must.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Didn't mean to imply not to follow proven sanitation procedures. I just think some folks get overly obsessed with sanitation to the point of overkill. Clean and dry equipment is generally sanitary enough for wine. That's all.

What I see over and over are people getting all anxious and worried about their wine if the forgot to rinse their spoon with some sanitizer before stirring their must.

I went to a barrel tasting at a winery in the Livermore Valley several years ago. The head vintner was using a rag to wipe off the wine thief between blending and tastings.

He simply rinsed the wine thief off and hung it back up on the wall next to the barrel. I asked him about it and he said that he had been doing that for a long time and hadn't had a batch go bad yet.

After there is a 12% solution of alcohol in the wine, it keeps itself pretty sterile.

 

[BernardSmith]

As a very new newbie to wine making I can see two different positions being argued here but these arguments seem to highlight two very different points along the time line of wine production. It is one thing to argue that when the wine in question is already at 11 or 12 percent ABV it may be relatively protected from all kinds of undesirable bacterial growth (although presumably MLF takes place through bacteria) It is quite another thing to argue that in the first days of fermentation when the must may contain 1 or 2 or even 5 or 7 percent alcohol by volume and where the pH may yet be so high (insufficiently acidic) as to not dis-inhibit spoilage, where the yeast you have added may be competing with other wild yeasts and other bacteria that you might prefer don't take root or flourish, that a more sanitary approach may be useful. Being more careful about cleanliness and sanitation in the earlier stages of wine production does not mean that you "obsess" about sanitary practices.

 

[bob1]

I was one that obsessed about it until I did the same thing Doctor Cad did and I saw the same thing he did. I asked for a sample from the barrel he got out a thief and rinsed it off in the sink, he did hold it up for a bit and let most of the water run off , then got me a sample. But still to this day I dont thief my wine till a rinse with sanitizer or use a spoon that wasnt. Though I know I dont need to.

 

[oldwhiskers]

I just play it safe, I'd rather drink the results of my labor instead of risking having to pour it out. The spray bottle of StarSan is so easy its not really a bother.

 

[joea132]

I've argued this on here myself. People obsess and stress over sanitizing when wine in and of itself is a relatively poor environment for bacteria. I am pretty strict especially in the beginning but tend to be more lax after fermentation. I understand playing it safe and I do add sulfites but I don't over stress it and sometimes let it get a little low on sulfites before I replenish them.

 

[joeswine]

As you beginning as you end?

THE REASON FOR SANITATION. SIMPLE, BE TRYING TO FIGHT THE BACTERIA IN ITS NATURAL STATE IN THE WINE, AS WELL IS EVERYTHING THE WINE COMES IN CONTACT WITH YOU'RE ALSO REINSTATING BACTERIA TO CONTROL GROWTH OF THE WINE AND TO STABILIZE THE GOOD BACTERIA IN IT . THE RULE OF THUMB IS TO SANITIZE EVERYTHING THAT THE WINE COMES IN CONTACT WITH LIKE ROBIE SAID, IT'S NOT EXPENSIVE TO DO , ITS THE CORRECT PROCEDURE TO FOLLOW AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY BATCHES OF WINE YOU MADE . I'VE BEEN WAKING MAKING WINE FOR 10 YEARS NOW AND HAVE MADE EVERY MISTAKE IN THE BOOK, SOME OF THEM WAS FROM IMPROPER SANITATION(TRYING TO MOVE TO FAST- CUTTING TIME), BUT YOU DON'T FIND THAT UNTIL YOUR DOWN LINE IT'S TOO LATE( THE TIME YOU THOUGHT YOU SAVED) , . SOME OF THEM ARE FROM RACKING NOT TAKING MY TIME , PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE IN THIS CRAFT, NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO , NO MATTER WHAT YOU SEE IF YOU ASK A MASTER WINEMAKER OR ANYONE WITH A SMALL WINERY OR ANYONE WITH GOOD WINE MAKING PRACTICES , . THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT SANITATION IS THE KEY ............ A YOU DO IN THE BEGINNING- AS YOU ARE IN THE END

 

[rjb222]

When I first talk to my customers I assume they are first timers. After I get to know them I will give them hints as to how clean they need to be. If they start off being lackadaisical then they will make a bad wine. I have had people with many wines come in and have a bad batch. It does not happen every time but it does happen. So when I talk to my customers cleaning is one step sanitation is another I always recommend a non rinse sanitizer. Even if the wine does not turn out bad from using no sanitizer every thing that is left behind effects the flavor. So do you need to be over the top no but be aware that every thing you do or don't do effects the final result.

 

[Sudz]

Good sanitation technique can also be a blessing when things do go wrong.

Like many of you I brew and make wine using much of the same equipment. I've never had a brew go bad but a few months back I noticed my wines were crashing at about 6 months. The hunt was on for the cause although I was fairly certain it was a bug in something.

Long story short, my Kmeta had lost it's strength setting on the shelf and since I wasn't measuring SO2, I didn't know it. I measure it now and this issue has been resolved but it did leave me with a bug in my system which continued to cause problems. Review of my sanitation process ruled out most everything involved. I replaced plastic and hoses and continued to search. I finally investigated my bottling bucket spigot and became concerned that I couldn't disassemble it for cleaning. Discovered from the forums that you can and should. When I broke down my spigot I was shocked at the crud I found inside between the body pieces.

Now most of you probably would say the spigot isn't a concern, just throw it in a solution of Kmeta for a soak which is what I had been doing for wines (iodophor for brew). I can't say for certain it was the cause of my problem, but I have three of these in various items and they all get torn down for cleaning now.

My wines since then have been clean.

I have always maintained a fairly intense sanitizing routine. Knowing this I was able to eliminate a number of potential areas which help in zeroing in on the spigot. Had I not been following good technique, finding the problem would have been significantly more challenging.

 

[rjb222]

Good sanitation technique can also be a blessing when things do go wrong.

Like many of you I brew and make wine using much of the same equipment. I've never had a brew go bad but a few months back I noticed my wines were crashing at about 6 months. The hunt was on for the cause although I was fairly certain it was a bug in something.

Long story short, my Kmeta had lost it's strength setting on the shelf and since I wasn't measuring SO2, I didn't know it. I measure it now and this issue has been resolved but it did leave me with a bug in my system which continued to cause problems. Review of my sanitation process ruled out most everything involved. I replaced plastic and hoses and continued to search. I finally investigated my bottling bucket spigot and became concerned that I couldn't disassemble it for cleaning. Discovered from the forums that you can and should. When I broke down my spigot I was shocked at the crud I found inside between the body pieces.

Now most of you probably would say the spigot isn't a concern, just throw it in a solution of Kmeta for a soak which is what I had been doing for wines (iodophor for brew). I can't say for certain it was the cause of my problem, but I have three of these in various items and they all get torn down for cleaning now.

My wines since then have been clean.

I have always maintained a fairly intense sanitizing routine. Knowing this I was able to eliminate a number of potential areas which help in zeroing in on the spigot. Had I not been following good technique, finding the problem would have been significantly more challenging.

You can never go wrong with what you are doing. If there Is a question at all sanitize. This is a good description of what I described previously in my post of what is left behind will effect the wine. Excellent work.

 

[GreginND]

Yes. Case in point. Make sure everything is clean and you have proper SO2 in your wine.

 

[bstnh1]

In the overall scheme of things, the time good sanitation takes is miniscule compared to your overall time and effort involved in producing and bottling 6 gallons of wine. What's the point of going through all that effort and increasing your chances of having to pour it all down the drain 6 months later? After all, how long does it take to give a spoon, etc. a couple of squirts of KMeta or Starsan?

 

[Marauderer]

Interesting thread. I have only made four batches of wine so far and everyone has turned out great. I always wash my equipment well after using it and then rinse with hot water before using it. I use my metabisul to sanitize and I don't think I am obsessed. I only use kits so far and really enjoy the results.