The analytics of an excellent wine?

[NorCal]

From my complete newbie view, I see four key analytics that can provide numbers as a key indicators on how a wine is going to taste. Is this accurate? Are there other key areas that can be measured?

If you were looking to make a Cab that was a bit sweet, really smooth with medium fruit, medium alcohol and good bouquet, what would you be looking for in terms of the analytics? What are the minimum and the maximum for these key indicators?


PH
Sugar
Alcohol
TA

 

[jdmyers]

I say unless your entering a competition the only thing that matters is taste. Its your wine and you are the primary consumer. If you love it then its exactly correct

 

[NorCal]

I guess I should have prefaced this with that I'm an engineer and I have an end goal of making a wine that could stand up to judging. I'm willing to spend the time and effort to make something really good.

 

[4score]

Great topic. I'm interested in hearing the responses. I have a cab franc barrel going and I know so far I'm a bit on the high side of ph (3.8). Also, my MLF didn't quite complete before I stopped it. In October malic was 2.46 and I'm at .92 now. So, the higher ph and "some" MLF will give me some "softness" that I'm after. The winery that tested my wine gave mine a TA reading of 6.85. I'm not even sure how to read that much less determine what to do about it!

I know you must be careful with your SO2. Enough to keep things clean, but too much will spoil your bouquet you're after. Because my ph is high, I have to put heavier doses of SO2.

In terms of sugar, my latest test result showed glucose/fructose of 1.64. Anyone know what this means?

I would like to take samples of local winery wines that I love and run the tests to establish a benchmark to shoot for. I wonder if I found two or three wines from different wineries that I especially love, and tested them, if I could find a common benchmark to shoot for in my next project? By the same token, run a couple wines that I'm NOT too fond of and see what is different in the test results.

Don't you just love this hobby.....so much to learn and play with!

 

[cmason1957]

I hate to break this to a fellow engineer, but there are no hard and fast numbers. All of the numbers you want would be in ranges and depend.

A dry red will generally be about 3.2-3.4 ph, with very low residual sugar (if any) TA will be 0.6-0.65. Alcohol around 12-14%.

Try those numbers with a sweet fruit wine and it will be Crap. The bottom line is make them taste like you like them. Then they are good to you. Everyone else may call them Crap, but you like them.

 

[Boatboy24]

To pile on to what cmason stated, it's all about balance. In other words, if you have a wine with a low pH, that might be balanced with residual sugar, etc. You don't want acid, sweetness, or alcohol being dominant. They all have to play well together. Having said that, there are "target" ranges for all of these things, based on the kind of wine you're making.

You can get your TA to be exactly .63% on every wine you make. But that will taste very different on a wine that fermented to .998, vs another identical wine that somehow got down to .992.

 

[GreginND]

These might be analytics of what could be construed as a palatable wine, but there are no analytics to define an "excellent" wine. Sorry. As a scientist I originally approached winemaking by the numbers. And then I quickly realized aside from basic balance of the chemistry, the rest is luck, nature and the artistry and palate of the winemaker.

 

[JohnT]

I agree with all said so far and would add the following..

The analytics are important for a wine's protection and good health. It is also important for balance, but has very little to do with having an excellent wine. So much more is at play here.

To me, the most important factors are Color, Flavor, and Clarity. Most competitions are judged, in large part, on these three categories. While having the wrong levels in your listed analytics can affect color, flavor, and clarity, in a negative way, having the right levels is no
guarantee of having excellent color, flavor, and clarity.

I can have a Welch's "wine" with perfect TA, PH, Brix, and ABV, but that don't make it a premier Cru.

 

[BernardSmith]

I think what everyone is saying is "spot on". Wine making is both a science and an art and ultimately it is about how you use the science to create the art. The "analytics" are not really very informative except as part of the process. And to take one extreme example, you could hit every one of the factors you suggest are key but if you used a different yeast the taste might be very different or if you fermented the wine 5 degrees cooler different esters might be more or less pronounced. You could make your wine absolutely to spec but its mouthfeel could be watery or the taste might fail to linger in your mouth. So more useful "analytics" might be appearance, color, smell, taste, ... and those are not as quantifiable as pH or ABV

 

[JohnT]

Good point Bernard. I would also add the type and duration of oak, the option of MLF, and also the length of macerating the grapes are also factors that affect the wine but not necessarily the analytics.

 

[sour_grapes]

I would sum up as:

Necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[BernardSmith]

. I would also add the type and duration of oak, the option of MLF, and also the length of macerating the grapes are also factors that affect the wine but not necessarily the analytics.

Absolutely. My point was not so much about what can affect the wine as about what the right kind of "analytics" look like and I guess the upshot of my post - and I think what everyone is saying is that the real factors are not measurable but are qualitative (the complexity of the flavors, the clarity of the color, the pleasure you get from the aromas (the nose). HOW you achieve this and whether you achieve this every time depends on your understanding of the science that under-girds wine making and your mastery of technique.

 

[Calamity Cellars]

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s&$@t. Start with fantastic fruit and stay out of the way unless flaws develop.


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[NorCal]

Thank you for the replies and not the responses I expected, which I suspect points to how much I have to learn. I had thought there were limits to the key indicators and if you were trying to achieve a certain end point, that you would adjust the must in a way that it will give you the end product you desire.

 

[NorCal]

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s&$@t. Start with fantastic fruit and stay out of the way unless flaws develop.

I spoke to a commercial winemaker tonight, that I respect and he pretty much said the same thing; 95% grapes, 5% keeping it sanitized.

 

[Turock]

I've been reading this thread and thinking how subjective this question is. And the one thing I can say is what some of you have already stated--it's mostly about the quality of the fruit used. AND you really need to know the characteristics of the fruit--the characteristics of THAT grape that you're using. Now a beginner will have a tough time determining that. It takes experience--or asking people who regularly work with that fruit or grape. This why I don't answer threads where the question is on a grape or fruit that I don't work with--because I'm not familiar with its characteristics. That is paramount, in my opinion.

So my best advice is to ask the forum these kinds of questions WHEN you have narrowed down the fruit or grape you want to ferment. Then we can help you with what to expect--what to shoot for with adjustments,etc. in order to get a good result. You can't talk about this in such generalities but when you focus on one fruit or grape, THEN we can have alot to say about it.

 

[Calamity Cellars]

I spoke to a commercial winemaker tonight, that I respect and he pretty much said the same thing; 95% grapes, 5% keeping it sanitized.

I think the 95% number is high. Fermentation temperature, yeast selection, barrel selection etc do play a role. I usually say 80% fruit, 15% winemaker inputs, and 5% wild a$$ luck.


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[Runningwolf]

I think the 95% number is high. Fermentation temperature, yeast selection, barrel selection etc do play a role. I usually say 80% fruit, 15% winemaker inputs, and 5% wild a$$ luck.


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I agree with Calamity, The first 80% is the grape and this is Partnership with the vineyard, vineyard manager and Mother Nature. Unfortunately she is the senior partner.
The rest of it falls on the science and art of the winemaker along with some good luck. You can take an ok vintage of a certain varietal and blend it with something else and make it great or you can have a varietal that finishes absolutely superb.

 

[JohnT]

I agree with Calamity, The first 80% is the grape and this is Partnership with the vineyard, vineyard manager and Mother Nature. Unfortunately she is the senior partner.
The rest of it falls on the science and art of the winemaker along with some good luck. You can take an ok vintage of a certain varietal and blend it with something else and make it great or you can have a varietal that finishes absolutely superb.

Dan,

I also agree (and would perhaps lower it even more).

Believe me, if two winemakers start out with the same grapes, their wine can still turn out vastly different. This is due to the fact that even a minor difference in the process can have a far reaching impact on the final product.

 

[berrycrush]

When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?