The analytics of an excellent wine?

[Boatboy24]

When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?

Yes.

Truthfully, it could be either one, or both. Or any other number of factors. Two winemakers could be given grapes from the same vineyard, yet still produce dramatically different wines.

 

[Calamity Cellars]

I would argue the other direction. When I am researching vineyards for a particular varietal I do extensive sampling of wines made from different regions in Washington State and narrow it down to a preferred ava. I then narrow the tasting to a particular vineyard and am constantly amazed at how similar wines from different wineries are that source from the same vineyard. Of course there are differences but the similarities overshadow them. I use this fact to ensure that there will be a quality as well as consistency in the vineyard and the resulting wines I make.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making

 

[cmason1957]

When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?

It can be from many things. This past year I and another winemaker friend helped pick grapes at a local winery (Vidal Blanc grapes) we each received 10 gallons of passed juice for our efforts, which we both Fermented without adding any other yeast. In the end these three wines (mine, friends, winemaker) taste nothing alike. My friend added some extra tannin and made a semi-sweet wine, I left mine dry and added almost nothing to it to, the winemaker at the winery did some other things.

My friend and I both entered or wine into a local wine competition and won folks, his got a slightly higher score than mine.

 

[NorCal]

....So my best advice is to ask the forum these kinds of questions WHEN you have narrowed down the fruit or grape you want to ferment. Then we can help you with what to expect--what to shoot for with adjustments,etc. in order to get a good result. You can't talk about this in such generalities but when you focus on one fruit or grape, THEN we can have alot to say about it.

Thank you for the responses.

I will be using Cabernet Franc, that grows very well in this hot region of California, with cool evening breezes. The vineyard typically makes the grapes available to small lot buyers with brix at 25-26.

 

[AKsarben]

Acid in the range of minimum of .5 and max in the range of 1.0
pH in the range of 2.98 to 3.7 Whites are better at lower pH and red a bit higher. A higher pH gives sort of a salty flavor to the wine. Best I can describe it.
EtOH (alcohol) in the range of anywhere from 9.5 to 13.9 14 if you must, but in commercial winemaking, that puts you in to a different tax bracket and we avoid it as much as possible. Also, EtOH gives a perceptable sweet flavor to the palate, so 13.8 will seem sweeter/softer than 9.5% will.
Sugar is around 0.5% for dry and up to 1.0 % and should be balanced with the acid. Higher acid wines will require a bit of a tweak of sugar to keep from being too tart. It's called a S/A or Sugar/Acid ratio Sugar divided by the acid will give the S/A.
All I have said is general and vague, and that is because winemaking is cooking. You decide where the flavor profile is YOU want and strive for that. You can always add a bit of Tartaric acid (before/during cold stabilization to bring down a high pH and raise the acid a touch. After that, small amounts of Malic or Citric acid tweaks will get you there. BTW, if you add a small amount of Citric it binds in with the left over Tartaric and better cold staililizes the wine after the initial cold stabilization. Alcohol will drop cream of tartar.
It's 1000 guesses and many tastes to find what you are looking for. It is not 2 eggs, 1/2 cup of oil, 2 cups of flour, 1 tsp salt, 1 tsp baking soda.... and so on for a cake recipie, as each is variable and different as there are different flowers and fragrances.

 

[sdelli]

Couldn't agree with Calamity more! You can tell he has a lot of experience. No matter how much I try to select good Chilean grapes..... They will never make wine that taste as good as the wine I make in the fall from grapes in the California Valleys! People think I'm crazy on how much my grapes cost per pound..... Until they taste my wine. Funny thing about good grapes... They tend to want to return to their state of personality. So, even if a slight change is made that you might not like..... Give it time and the start to forgive. I believe winemaking is in the vineyard.... We are just cooks in the kitchen and you know all cooks believe their recipe is the best!


Sam

 

[AKsarben]

....then there are the clones of the grapes. Riesling has several as well as does Pinot Noir. A famous French wine maker was asked one time what clone he would choose to do a replant of his vineyard. Saying no specific he said " I would plant a minimum of 3 clones and probably more". Knowing that each clone added that to the mix that maybe some of the others were lacking.

Yes, they are difference in grapes, and wine making starts out there... in the vineyard, AND when it is picked. You pick grapes that have green seeds and I guarantee 100% it is NOT going to be the right flavor of one that has been allowed to mature a bit so that the seeds (and resulting grapes) have matured into the ripe fruit a winemaker is looking for.

 

[seth8530]

Interesting thread, honestly I feel that the quality of the grapes is crucial and plays a major role in the flavour profile. However, I also feel that the wine maker also plays a large role.

Ie, do you think that if you had Pinot Noirs from two separate regions and in each region the grapes were fermented two different ways. Say at 55 degrees F with no oak and the other was fermented at say 80 F with oak. I believe that the warm fermented oaked pinot noir from the two different regions would taste more like each other than the warm and cold fermented ones from the same region.

This along with techniques such as surlie, coldsoak, MLF, yeast choice... I feel like their is still a lot of room for the wine maker to have a strong impact on the wine.

 

[AKsarben]

All things being equal, same vineyard, same grapes, same yeast, same temp at winemaking you would still have different wine if one was picked earlier and one later, both Pinot Noir fermented on the skins at same temp, etc. Grapes make the wine. There is only so much you can do with wine making, but in the end it's the grapes. You can use caution, use good wine making techniques, and if you do exactly like X winemaker Y winemaker and Z winemaker on the same grapes/vineyard, they are going to be pretty much indiscernible from each other. A simple change of yeast, or allowing longer skin contact, addition of tartaric acid from the onset (ESPECIALLY latter in Pinot Noir) will have an impact. You want to see bright cherry red colors, add Tartaric Acid to the Pinot before fermentation. Want to see muddy colors? Allow Pinot to ferment at high pH and you will fight it always to get it to the color you want.