WineXpert Stabilizing question

[scorpio]

Wine kit: Selection Limited Edition Cab/Sauv


Stage 4 instructions (racking/clarification) says the following: "if you want to age your wine more than 6 monthsyou mustadd extra metabisulphite powder to prevent oxidation. Disolve 1/4 teaspoon in 1/2 cup cool water"


If I have the camden tablets and it's a 6 gallon mixture would I crush 6 tablets?a


By aging of wine for more than 6 months are they referring to once bottled, if I plan to let set 6 months?


I've been pretty thorough following the written instructions, but this confused me


Does the camden clear the wine - if not what would I use if I wanted to further "clear" prior to bottling and when?


Thanks for the help - great forum!

 

[Wade E]

Tha campden does not clear the wine. Just gives more free S02 to
protect wine from oxidation whether bulk aging or in the bottles. If
your not going to bottle it and letting it sit bulk aging for six
months, let time clear it. I assume you already used the clarifier in
the kit right. Did it not do its job. Was the wine properly degassed
before adding clarifier?

 

[PolishWineP]

Yes, add 1 tab per gallon


Either bulk aging or bottle aging. It is supposedly the same. (It is just harder to try a bottle or 2 while bulk aging.)


No, campden is not for clearing wine. If you want to further clear your wine, bulk aging isa way to do this. If you let it sit for 3 months in the carboy, rack it off the sediment, and repeat the process at the 6 month mark, you should have a pretty clear wine.
Your kit should have had a pack with a clarifying agent that you would have already used.
If you want a wine with a polished look you would want to consider filtering a clear wine.

 

[masta]

1/4 tsp of K-meta in 6 gallons equals ~30 ppm SO2


1 campden tab = ~75 ppm SO2 in 1 gallon


2.5 tabs x ~75 = 187.5 divided by 6 gallons = ~31.25 ppm S02Edited by: masta

 

[jcnoren]

RJSpagnols kits and Wine Expert kits in their instructions say if you want to age your wine for more than 6 months add 1/4tsp additional metabilsulfite.


These same instructions do not appear in Paklab wine kits. I assumed additional meta should also be added and so I did add the extra meta. Curious I emailed paklabproducts the question Should I be adding extra meta if I want to keep my wine for longer than a year. Boy was I surprised by their answer which was;we advice in our recipes – for our kits – to not add extra metabisulphite. Just follow our instructions and it will be OK.







So my question is will the extra meta that I added cause my wine any problems?? JC;Edited by: jcnoren

 

[masta]

Most likely it will be ok but ask them what the the amount of SO2 is in PPM at bottling with their kits then you can 30 to this number to get the total.

 

[jcnoren]

What should the PPMbeto age wine over a year? Parts Per Million...


what I am not understanding is you can 30 to this number to get the total......sorry I am lost.


JCEdited by: jcnoren

 

[masta]

Sorry bout that I should have been clearer. The 1/4 tsp of K-meta adds an extra ~30 ppm of S02 to the wine. I believe the WE kits are in the range of 20-30 ppm at bottlingso adding the extra 30 will give you a total of 50-60 ppm for long term storage.

 

[jcnoren]

Thank you

.... JC

 

[OilnH2O]

1/4 tsp of K-meta in 6 gallons equals ~30 ppm SO2


1 campden tab = ~75 ppm SO2


2.5 tabs x ~75 = 187.5 divided by 6 gallons = ~31.25

Scott, I read that above as "1/4 tsp of K-meta in 6 gallons equals ~ 30 ppm SO2"... per gallon


Is that correct?


And, from your last statement,I'm concluding that for a 6 gallon carboy of wine that you want to bulk age, just put in 2 1/2 Camden tabs


Is that correct?


Dave

 

[masta]

Scott, I read that above as "1/4 tsp of K-meta in 6 gallons equals ~ 30 ppm SO2"... per gallon



Is that correct?


Adding 1/4 tsp of K-meta to 6 gallons increases the S02 of the entire batch by 30 ppm. If the batch was 3 gallons you would add 1/8 of a tsp of K-meta.




And, from your last statement,I'm concluding that for a 6 gallon carboy of wine that you want to bulk age, just put in 2 1/2 Camden tabs


Is that correct?


YES....Based on the assumption that 1 campden tablet increases the S02 of 1 gallon by 75 ppm.

 

[Joseph1]

Masta has indicated that 2½ Campden tablets is correct assuming that 1 Campden tablet increases SO2 of 1 gallon by 75ppm. I would like to share two observations regarding Campden tablets.<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

The first is from Tim Vandegrift, Technical Services Manager for WinExpert: “Step one: throw out your Campden tablets. They are the tools of Satan, cause tooth decay, promote teenage pregnancy and contribute to the moral collapse of modern society. I hate Campden tablets.”

The second is my own observation regarding widely available Campden tablets. Crosby and Baker packages a Campden tablet made with potassium metabisulfite. On its label it states that it adds 30ppm of free SO2 to one gallon. L.D. Carlson packages a Campden tablet made of sodium metabisulfite. On its label it states that it adds 150ppm of total SO2 to one gallon.

So, how much SO2 does a Campden tablet really add? If you use Campden tablets because of convenience, know how much SO2 you are adding to your wine.

 

[PeterZ]

There are two factors at work here. Because they are different molecules they contain different amounts of SO2. K-meta (K2S2O5) has a mw of 222, while Na-meta (Na2S2O5) is 188. As a result, since SO2 has an mw of 64, K-meta is 28.8% SO2, while Na-meta is 34% SO2.

That's not enough difference to account for the 5x difference between the two brands. The balance must be the result of how much active meta is in the tablet. We have no way of knowing that, and no easy way of testing it.

What I can do, if someone will weigh a Campden tablet (actually, weigh 10 and divide by 10), is calculate the theoretical maximum SO2 it could contribute if it were 100% (Na or K)-meta. Whoever has the gunpowder scale (mine is packed away or I would do it myself) can give me the answer in grains and I can calculate from there.

For the moment we won't even go into the fact that you do not have SO2 in the wine. When K-meta (potassium metabisulfite) is dissolved in water you get:

K2S2O5 + H2O --&gt; 2(KHSO3) - potassium bisulfite, which dissociates into

K+ + H+ + SO3-2 (the + after the K and H and the -2 after the SO3 indicate the ionic charge).

2(SO3-2) + O2 --&gt; 2(SO4-)

That's how it prevents oxidation of the wine, and inhibits bacteria that need oxygen to grow. It sucks up all of the free oxygen, converting it to harmless sulfate ions. This reaction at wine levels of "SO2" takes about 20 minutes to go to completion at room temperature, which is plenty fast for our purposes.

This concludes this episode of "Chemistry You Really Don't Give A S$%# About." Stay tuned for further episodes.

 

[Wade E]

So if I'm using the Crosby &amp; Baker ones I add 6 per 6 gallons and
the others 2 1/2 per gallon then. I always use the Crosby ones so Im
glad we had this discussion as I was just about change that
to 2 1/2 per Mastas instructions lately.

 

[masta]

So if I'm using the Crosby &amp; Baker ones I add 6 per 6 gallons and the others 2 1/2 per gallon then. I always use the Crosby ones so Im glad we had this discussion as I was just about change that to 2 1/2 per Mastas instructions lately.

My suggestion of using 2.5 campden tabs was based on the assumption of 1 tablet adding 75 ppm of SO2 (this info was gathered from many sources). To be quite honest I agree with Joesph and Tim V. and don't use campden tabs just because I don't know how much sulfite I would be adding. I have done my own testing and the amount of sulfite varied up to 60% depending upon who makes them.

 

[sally3]

OMG!!! Peterz...who are You!!!! I've been off this forem waaaayyyyy to long. Sally

 

[sally3]

I just realized I may have said something way too stupid. I have
always been amazed by the expertise, intelligence and willingness of
the people on this forum to share information. Sometimes I forget
this is chemistry with an healthy mix of geograpy and geology.
Sometimes I am overwhelmed by the scientific elements you are all so
familiar with. Thanks for all the information you are willingly
to share!! Sally

 

[Wade E]

Dont worry sally, we all razz Peter as he is way to smart for some of
us (especially me). I went to a technical school and they wizzed us
through all the academic coarses to get into our shop classes and I never really did learn to much of the science or math.

 

[masta]

Peter,


I saw your numbers regarding the percentage of SO2 in K-meta and Na-meta and it seemed low compared to what I have always read. I looked back to a reference I had and this is the info posted. Not saying you are incorrect but trying to understand the numbers.


source of info: http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm



<CENTER>
<H2>3. Sodium and Potassium Salts </H2></CENTER>Two salt forms of sulphite are generally used in winemaking: potassium metabisulphite (K<SUB>2</SUB>S<SUB>2</SUB>O<SUB>5</SUB>) and sodium metabisulphite (Na<SUB>2</SUB>S<SUB>2</SUB>O<SUB>5</SUB>).

The molecular weight of sodium metabisulphite is 190.2 and that of potassium metabisulphite is 222.4, whereas that of sulphur dioxide (SO<SUB>2</SUB>) is 64.1. The salts dissociate giving two moles of SO<SUB>2</SUB> for each mole of the salt. Thus, the SO<SUB>2</SUB> content of sodium metabisulphite is 2 x 64.1/190.2 = 67.4% and that of potassium metabisulphite is 2 x 64.1/222.4 = 57.6%.


<CENTER>Table 1. SO<SUB>2</SUB> content in metabisulphite salts

<TABLE border=1>
<T>
<TR>
<TH align=middle>Salt</TH>
<TH>SO<SUB>2</SUB> content</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Sodium metabisulphite</TD>
<TD align=middle>67.4 %</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Potassium metabisulphite</TD>
<TD align=middle>57.6 %</TD>
<TD></TD></TR></T></TABLE></CENTER>
Winemakers generally prefer to use the potassium form for sulphite additions, since this increases the level of potassium in the wine which may later help to precipitate tartrates when cold stabilising. Others claim that the sodium form can contribute a `salty' flavour to wine.



<CENTER>
<H2>4. Forms and Functions of Sulphur Dioxide in Wine </H2></CENTER>
<H3>4.1. Dissociation of Forms</H3>Potassium metabisulphite dissociates in water to potassium ions (K<SUP>+</SUP>) and singly ionised bisulphite, (HSO<SUB>3</SUB>)<SUP>-</SUP>. (Sodium metabisulphite dissociates in the same way.)

Metabisulphite dissociates in the following way to form these fractions:


<CENTER>K<SUB>2</SUB>S<SUB>2</SUB>O<SUB>5</SUB> + H<SUB>2</SUB>O ===&gt; 2K<SUP>+</SUP> + 2(HSO<SUB>3</SUB>)<SUP>-</SUP>
</CENTER>
Sulphur dioxide is a bifunctional acid, and dissociates into three fractions. The quantity of each of these fractions depends on the thermodynamic constants and the pH. The dissociation is almost instantaneous.

The three fractions are molecular SO<SUB>2</SUB> (SO<SUB>2</SUB>), sulphite (SO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>2-</SUP>), and bisulphite (HSO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>-</SUP>). Dissociation of the various fractions is almost immediate.

Since wine is acidic, hydrogen ions are present (H<SUP>+</SUP>) and the bisulphite (HSO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>-</SUP>) can then transform into sulphur dioxide:

<CENTER>
<TABLE>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>HSO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>-</SUP>
<TD>+ H<SUP>+</SUP></TD></TD>
<TD>&lt;===&gt; </TD>
<TD>H<SUB>2</SUB>O</TD>
<TD>+ SO<SUB>2</SUB></TD></TR>

<TR>
<TD>singly ionized bisulphite </TD>
<TD>+ hydrogen ion</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD>water</TD>
<TD>+ unionized (molecular) sulphur dioxide </TD></TR></CENTER></T></TABLE>
Additionally,


<CENTER>
<TABLE>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>HSO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>-</SUP> </TD>
<TD>+ H<SUB>2</SUB>O </TD>
<TD>&lt;===&gt; </TD>
<TD>H<SUP>+</SUP> </TD>
<TD>+ SO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>2-</SUP> </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>singly ionized bisulphite </TD>
<TD>+ water</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD>hydrogen ion</TD>
<TD>+ doubly ionized sulphite </TD></TR></T></TABLE>
</CENTER>
Thus, the relationships of the forms of SO<SUB>2</SUB> in wine are shown completely by:


<CENTER>
<TABLE>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>H<SUB>2</SUB>O + </TD>
<TD>SO<SUB>2</SUB> </TD>
<TD>&lt;===&gt; </TD>
<TD>H<SUP>+</SUP> </TD>
<TD>+ (HSO<SUB>3</SUB>)<SUP>-</SUP> </TD>
<TD>&lt;===&gt; </TD>
<TD>2H<SUP>+</SUP> </TD>
<TD>+ SO<SUB>3</SUB><SUP>2-</SUP> </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>water + </TD>
<TD>molecular sulphur dioxide </TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD>hydrogen ion </TD>
<TD>+ bisulphite </TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD>hydrogen ion </TD>
<TD>+ sulphite </SUP></TD></TR></T></TABLE></CENTER>

The amount of each free SO<SUB>2</SUB> that is in each fraction (bisulphite, sulphite, and molecular) is determined by the pH. Figure 1 shows the distribution of the different species for various pH values.


<CENTER>

</CENTER>

 

[Angell Wine]

In one corner we have Albert Einstein in the other corner we have Sir Isaac Newton. Just kidding guys.Greatreading. Keep it up.