Mike, I know that you are talking about making wine from grapes, but would this compound also enhance a kit with a grape pack?
Red Wine - Improved Color Extraction
- Thread starter PCharles
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
Both of those products are intended to work on the grape skins and I don't think there are enough skins in a grape pack to make any noticeable difference. On the other hand I did just experiment and use some Booster Rouge on my WE Washington State Meritage kit. This has been used on kit wines and the reports/feedback seem to be very encouraging.
Calamity Cellars
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2010
- Messages
- 111
- Reaction score
- 54
Any step you take to increase color and body is reward/risk scenario.
Cold soak (soaking pre ferment and keeping it cold to prevent ferentation ) is a very low reward with a high cost in keeping it cold. Extraction from Skin and pulp is a water based extraction and very temperature dependant. When you cool the must you are actually slowing down the extraction. Seems kind of counter productive, doesn't it? I am not saying you get zero color from this but the amount is extremely low. May people like to cite the anecdotal 'proof' of color extraction based on the juice turning red before ferment starts. I was involved for a short time in an ongoing study on cold soak and when comparing finished wines (which is the goal) there was little to no difference in color for wines that had been cold soaked. That little bit of color that comes out during cold soak is going to come out anyway.
Extended Maceration is the soaking after ferment. This has some interesting benefits. Studies have shown that extended maceration can induce tannins to convert from short chain tannin to long chain tannin which is a milder form. However, seed tannin, which is bitter and, in my opinion, quite nasty, is an etoh soluble tannin. Therefore soaking seeds in a high etoh environmnet is a bad idea. If you are able to remove the seeds before extended maceration this may be a good idea. It does not, however, increase color extraction.
Fermentation temperatue is, by far, the very best way to maximize color extraction. Like I stated above, color is water soluble and just like anything water soluable higher temperatures extracts more. This is why we wash clothes and dishes in hot and washing your car works better with hot water. The cool thing about trying to ferment hot is you have a natural heat source...the fermentation itself. If you can find a way to insulate your fermentation container you will easily be able to get temperatures up. I make some of the darkest syrah you will ever come across. I source from a vineyard that is known for dark fruit but then I ferment into the 90's and take no action to control temperature unless it approaches 100F. This is not something I recommend unless you know your fruit and your yeast and you are prepered to restart a stuck ferment if things go south. I only say that to show that I practice what I am preaching.
Best of luck.
Cold soak (soaking pre ferment and keeping it cold to prevent ferentation ) is a very low reward with a high cost in keeping it cold. Extraction from Skin and pulp is a water based extraction and very temperature dependant. When you cool the must you are actually slowing down the extraction. Seems kind of counter productive, doesn't it? I am not saying you get zero color from this but the amount is extremely low. May people like to cite the anecdotal 'proof' of color extraction based on the juice turning red before ferment starts. I was involved for a short time in an ongoing study on cold soak and when comparing finished wines (which is the goal) there was little to no difference in color for wines that had been cold soaked. That little bit of color that comes out during cold soak is going to come out anyway.
Extended Maceration is the soaking after ferment. This has some interesting benefits. Studies have shown that extended maceration can induce tannins to convert from short chain tannin to long chain tannin which is a milder form. However, seed tannin, which is bitter and, in my opinion, quite nasty, is an etoh soluble tannin. Therefore soaking seeds in a high etoh environmnet is a bad idea. If you are able to remove the seeds before extended maceration this may be a good idea. It does not, however, increase color extraction.
Fermentation temperatue is, by far, the very best way to maximize color extraction. Like I stated above, color is water soluble and just like anything water soluable higher temperatures extracts more. This is why we wash clothes and dishes in hot and washing your car works better with hot water. The cool thing about trying to ferment hot is you have a natural heat source...the fermentation itself. If you can find a way to insulate your fermentation container you will easily be able to get temperatures up. I make some of the darkest syrah you will ever come across. I source from a vineyard that is known for dark fruit but then I ferment into the 90's and take no action to control temperature unless it approaches 100F. This is not something I recommend unless you know your fruit and your yeast and you are prepered to restart a stuck ferment if things go south. I only say that to show that I practice what I am preaching.
Best of luck.
Last edited:
tolikovski
Junior
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2010
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
hi, since the topic covers red's color I'd ask a question. I made Syrah last year, which turned up nice and inky dark, however between 2nd and 3rd racking I lost most of the color. I did not get much splashing during the racking, which was suggested (web search) as a requirement for color retention during bulk aging. Any ideas/suggestions on how to avoid that sort of a color loss?
Bartman
Senior Member
Tolikovski,
When you racked, how long had you bulk aged? Did you use nay fining agents between the first and second rackings? If so, the agent used might explain it, or a part of it. If you hadn't bulk aged for long, and depending on how much sediment you transferred in the first racking, what you may have thought was dark wine was actually lighter-colored wine with a lot of sediment/grape skins floating in it. If none of that seems to apply, then I am out of ideas.
When you racked, how long had you bulk aged? Did you use nay fining agents between the first and second rackings? If so, the agent used might explain it, or a part of it. If you hadn't bulk aged for long, and depending on how much sediment you transferred in the first racking, what you may have thought was dark wine was actually lighter-colored wine with a lot of sediment/grape skins floating in it. If none of that seems to apply, then I am out of ideas.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2010
- Messages
- 10,069
- Reaction score
- 5,947
I have to admit that colorloss liky you describe does not normally happen. Tell us more. How long have you aged it? What did you used to clean you equipment? Any level of detail could be the cause.
tolikovski
Junior
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2010
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
Thank you for your input Bart - I wish it was that obvious 
. wine spent ~3month between rackings. I had 2oz of med toasted oak beans in the carboy. I chilled wine after ML, so wine was free of sediment. I don't fine wine - after chilling and few racking it is clear enough. Last year I tried (for the first time) extended maceration - extra week under CO2 blanket in a closed barrel, but I doubt that it had something to do with the color loss....
. wine spent ~3month between rackings. I had 2oz of med toasted oak beans in the carboy. I chilled wine after ML, so wine was free of sediment. I don't fine wine - after chilling and few racking it is clear enough. Last year I tried (for the first time) extended maceration - extra week under CO2 blanket in a closed barrel, but I doubt that it had something to do with the color loss....tolikovski
Junior
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2010
- Messages
- 8
- Reaction score
- 0
John,
usual Meta spray in and out. I haven't noticed any spoilage on then surface, there was not any suspicious smell either.
usual Meta spray in and out. I haven't noticed any spoilage on then surface, there was not any suspicious smell either.
To really get good colour I would use an enzyme like rapidase ex color , an SIY like optired and 2 g / Litre of medium toast French oak (or tannin product , I like oak for it's subtlety) in the primary.
The enzyme pulls the colour out of the skins, the inactivated yeast product stabilizes the colour during the ferment and the tannin from the oak or tannin product locks it in for the long term and reduces fading.
I like the rapidase ex colour enzyme because I can add it at crush and it isn't inhibited by any so2 added at crush as some enzymes are.
Make sure when you ferment you get a nice hot heat spike timed with the peak of fermentation, 24 Hours of a good hot ferment. This is essential for extraction.
Punch down 4 or 5 times a day this mechanical action further breaks down the skins ( you could even do a submerged cap if you have pump over capability)
I'd do these before considering cold soaks or extended macerations .
Delaying mlf and doing it in a barrel can also preserve colour , this delayed barrel mlf and colour preservation is often employed with Pinot noir where colour is a struggle to get
The enzyme pulls the colour out of the skins, the inactivated yeast product stabilizes the colour during the ferment and the tannin from the oak or tannin product locks it in for the long term and reduces fading.
I like the rapidase ex colour enzyme because I can add it at crush and it isn't inhibited by any so2 added at crush as some enzymes are.
Make sure when you ferment you get a nice hot heat spike timed with the peak of fermentation, 24 Hours of a good hot ferment. This is essential for extraction.
Punch down 4 or 5 times a day this mechanical action further breaks down the skins ( you could even do a submerged cap if you have pump over capability)
I'd do these before considering cold soaks or extended macerations .
Delaying mlf and doing it in a barrel can also preserve colour , this delayed barrel mlf and colour preservation is often employed with Pinot noir where colour is a struggle to get
Last edited:
btom2004
Wine On My Mind
- Joined
- May 27, 2012
- Messages
- 454
- Reaction score
- 30
I was looking at this item, but have not ordered it yet.
Red Wine Coloring Powder
All-natural Grape-Skin Extract in powder form for color enhancement of red wines, or to blush whites. -FDA approved -Made from selected grapes 'vitus vinifera', notably Ancllotta and Lambrusco Usage; 2-4 gms per gallon
http://www.winemakersdepot.com/Red-Wine-Coloring-Powder-2-oz--P147.aspx
MalvinaScordaad
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 26
This seems to be the latest conventional wisdom on a few things mentioned here. For Cold Soaks anything over 3 days is a waste of time. Only certain varietals benefit from Cold Soaks. Cab and Merlot are not one of them Sangiovese is. Most enzymes do a better job of extraction than cold soaks. Tannin additions at lag phase and at 1/3 third sugar depletion locks color in. Ferments over 85 degrees aid in extraction and locking color in. Fruit is not lost going in the the high 80s when fermenting. Extended maceration is not very useful if less than 21 days after fermentation is complete. Ripeness of grapes is the key to extended maceration. Anything less than optimal will extract unwanted seed tannins. Also to correct one thing Opti Red and Booster Rouge are not enzymes. Grape skin extract is fine in small amounts yet can affect taste when used in too much quantity. And my own opinion I am not convinced at all about delayed MLf doing anything. And last using Milk jugs and water jugs is dangerous as they crack very easily in your fermenter.
Use thicker plastic containers for Ice bombs
Malvina
Use thicker plastic containers for Ice bombs
Malvina
Last edited:
MalvinaScordaad
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 26
There are plastic containers sometimes they are in boxes that hold cooking oil they are much thicker. Grape and Juice suppliers have nice food grade plastic containers usually 3- 5 gallon in size. Also these are good http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=26049&catid=611&clickid=searchresults
I use these http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/search.aspx?search=75175&page=1
Malvina
Last edited:
MalvinaScordaad
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 26
You don't mean the black trash bags do you? They are hardly food grade and leach oils from the plastic.
Malvina
I have made multiple orders from US Plastics. Great stuff for sure but they can be pricey. I agree the 1G water bottles sold at stores are thin walled and will split if you look at them crossways. If you use them you should remove several ounces from the top to make plenty of room for expansion due to freezing. Also sticking them in a secondary containment system such as another plastic (garbage) bag with a twist tie is also a good added safety feature. For the home winemaker they are an inexpensive way of controlling temps while you transport your fruit home from far away distances (farther than M&M in Hartford CT to certain places in NY......)
Would love to see the scientific data from a pertinent research paper. Source?
MalvinaScordaad
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 26
OH come on! scientific data from a pertinent research paper?, Just smell the things, someone said some have have insecticide impregnating them. It's not hard to find warnings about their use with food. Food grade bags are clear and not made from recycled materials. Wow you do use them. I really thought you were going to tell me you didn't.
And as far as the US Plastic Jugs being pricey, they are FDA approved food safe especially in an alcohol environment, to me that is paramount , and they last for years. I think they are worth the investment especially when the alternative is a disaster waiting to happen.
Malvina
Almost all of the black trash bags come with a odor neutralizing compound. Hefty's "unscented odor block technology" states on their site " Neutralizes garbage odors. Not recommended for food storage". That's enough info to scare me away. I don't need any more scientific data.
I know the chemicals are inside the bags and not on the outside but the bags are packed together, there has to be some transfer. I believe the company that makes Hefty trash bags also makes large food safe bags for a little more dollars.
I know the chemicals are inside the bags and not on the outside but the bags are packed together, there has to be some transfer. I believe the company that makes Hefty trash bags also makes large food safe bags for a little more dollars.
Similar threads
