Cellar Craft Oak on the Red Mtn Cab

[uavwmn]

I have my Red Mtn Cab from CC bulk aging now. But I was wondering if I messed it up by leaving it on the oak for 5 weeks?

 

[ibglowin]

I think that kit can easily take that. I left mine in for 3 months and it was just about perfect oak wise.

 

[v1rotate]

Was this the kit supplied oak cubes? I'm pretty sure they give up all their oakiness w/i a couple of weeks so the extra time won't matter. Have you tasted it? Over-oaked is pretty obvious to me. Ask me how I know.

 

[RickC]

OK Jim, I'll bite. Tell us how you know.

 

[vcasey]

Cause it tastes like your're chewing a tree. Really you can't miss the aroma or taste when you've gone overboard.

 

[ibglowin]

My suppled oak for that kit was 3oz and it was in for 3 mo. and not over oaked. I don't like a big oak monster either. YMMV as they say, always taste along the way. Those beans will take longer than a couple weeks to fully extract but you'll get most all of it in 3-4 weeks.

 

[v1rotate]

OK Jim, I'll bite. Tell us how you know.

I put some American Heavy Toast in a batch of Trinity Red. Tasted it about a month later, ouch. Overpowering oak flavor. That was a couple of years ago. A few months ago I was making a 9G batch of chardonnay from some concentrate that a buddy gave me. I ended up with a 1G container for the last of it, so I tossed in some beans that were Hungarian Medium Toast. They had been used once for 2 or 3 weeks. Again I waited a month to taste it. Pretty dumb, right? Same thing, way over oaked. Much worse than the first time. So I blended it with the other 8 gallons and it is all slightly over oaked now. SWMBO likes it, though, so not a total loss.

 

[ibglowin]

Thats exactly why I don't use it (American Oak) It just packs way too much of a punch!

I put some American Heavy Toast in a batch of Trinity Red. Tasted it about a month later, ouch. Overpowering oak flavor.

 

[tonyt]

Three ounces of Hungarian cubes works well for me in bulk aging, really don't have to remove them until three month racking. When I use American oak it's one medium toast spiral, not two and I start tasting after 3 weeks. I find French oak more subtle than American and often use 2 spirals, tasting after 3 weeks. I leave the oak till just past perfect, assuming it will settle back just a bit.

Been tasting the RJS Toro that I have aging with French oak spiral. It fermented with provided oak chips, secondary with provided 50gr Hungarian cubes and I have added the French. I know that sounds like tons of oak but I taste it every 3 or 4 days and it is really good. Right now the oakiness is exactly where I want it to finish so I am leaving it for another week or so thinking by the time we start drinking it will be perfect.

 

[uavwmn]

I feel alot better now.

I didn't want to ruin this cab because the first kit I made was awesome.


Thanks everyone.


Kathie

 

[RickC]

Will French and America oak end up at a comparable flavor profile assuming you taste regularly to account for the extra punch from American oak? The vanilla is what I am primarily curious about. Is French more prone to give the vanilla flavors or are they similar?

 

[eblasmn9]

I am about ready to start my Toro. How long have you been bulk aging it. I really like oak in my wines.


Earl

 

[ibglowin]

A comparison of French, Hungarian, and American Oaks

The following are results from research done at Stavin and should only be used to give an approximation of what each of these three varieties of oak can bring to your wine. Each sample was made using oak cubes with a two-month contact time and evaluated with no bottle ageing. Note: Due to the complexities of flavor chemistry these findings may or may not translate to your wine 100%. However, this information should be helpful in finding out which type of oak may the best to start with as you refine your oaking tastes.

French Oak Flavor Summary

• All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
• French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
• As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin
in character.

American Oak Flavor Summary

• The American oak had aromatic sweetness and a campfire/roasted coffee attribute present in all three toast levels, with Medium Plus and Heavy toast having the highest intensity.
• American oak had cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy quality.
• American Oak imparted mouthfeel/fullness, especially in Medium Plus.

Hungarian Oak Flavor Summary

• The Hungarian oak at Medium toast displayed a high perceived-vanillin content, with roasted coffee, bittersweet
chocolate and black pepper characters.
• Medium Plus and Heavy toast imparted mouthfeel fullness,
with only a slight amount of campfire/roasted coffee. Heavy also had pronounced vanillin. At all toast levels, there were unique attributes such as leather and black pepper, not observed in other oak origins.

Will French and America oak end up at a comparable flavor profile assuming you taste regularly to account for the extra punch from American oak? The vanilla is what I am primarily curious about. Is French more prone to give the vanilla flavors or are they similar?

 

[tonyt]

I am about ready to start my Toro. How long have you been bulk aging it. I really like oak in my wines.


Earl

My Toro was started in mid June, clarified by late July. It is now one month into a 5 month carboy age. This will not be going into the Vadia barrel that's why I did the three oak layering. So far I couldn't be happier with this wine.

 

[tonyt]

Mike, that's a terrific resource, thanks. You ought to copy it to one of the FAQ areas.

 

[v1rotate]

Mike, that's a terrific resource, thanks. You ought to copy it to one of the FAQ areas.

I copied to my own FAQ area! Thanks, Mike. Great info.

 

[ibglowin]

Glad to help!

PM me if you want the link to the full pdf.

 

[eblasmn9]

Mike, that is very informative on the characteristics of different oaks. I reallywant to experiment with oaking.There just may be a barrel in my future. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[uavwmn]

Mike, do you use oak barrels for any of your aging? I was thinking of maybe trying a 5 gallon oak barrel. Any suggestions or advice here?
Kathie

 

[ibglowin]

I have 2 of the 23L and looking at a 40L if I am able to source fresh grapes this Fall.

Everything that has gone into the barrel comes out tasting fantastic. I have an 8 mo old Red Mountain Cab that spent 2 months, yes only 2 months and it has GOLD medal written all over it.It really seems to smooth out the wine much faster and of course the longer it stays in the more it concentrates the wine and flavors.

I hear the 5 gallon barrels are not worth it. The smaller the barrel the more problems with leakage you have. I have had a few issues (as first) with sealing my 6 gallon barrels. One was perfect and sealed fast, the other was problematic at sealing but eventually did after a week of soaking but I lost a lot of oak to water. Upside was wine was able to stay in longer from the get go.

Overall very pleased with whats coming out of them. I have not started drinking any of them yet, still too young but perhaps this Winter I will try a few of the splits I bottled here and there.

These are both Vadai barrels BTW.