Newbies be aware

[Sudz]

I thought I'd share a little oops I discovered in my wine making which may save someone a headache. I just poured out the better part of three years of production because I found I had virtually no SO2 in my treasured inventory. Yes, I did taste them first...

I always put the classical 1/4 tsp kmeta in every batch prior to bottling. All these wines were good going into the bottle and much improved in about 6 months. Some were excellent, all were enjoyable. However, they all started to develop a taste which killed the possibility of continuing to drink them. The taste was sort of moldy prunes for want of a better description.

At first I considered oxidation as the culprit but ruled this out simply because my process is very attentive to restricting encounters with air. And the color remained great on all of the tainted wine. This is an issue with reds since none of my whites made it 6 months..

I considered SO2 but didn't have a way to accurately measure the stuff. I had been using the little titrets as encouraged by my LHBS. Discovered these don't actually work all that well on reds and shouldn't be used on them.

I eventually developed an AO system for titrating the SO2 involved. This immediately identified my problem. My Potassium Metabisulfite was only about 20% full strength. I had been using the same bottle since day one, about 3 1/2 years. I knew it didn't keep once it was added to water but early "advice" received told me it kept forever on the shelf.... WRONG!

So those relying on their kmeta be forewarned. If you're not adding what's required at bottling using fresh kmeta, your wine will go bad.

Apparently if the stock you're using is fresh it will last 6 - 12 months. I guess the first question is do you know if your stock was fresh when you received it?

I've gone nuts measuring SO2 on everything we drink and have found some interesting things but then thats for another post someday.

Bottom line, make certain you have the appropriate level of SO2 in anything you bottle "if" you plan on keeping in around for very long.

Cheers....

 

[tonyandkory]

Maybe its luck but we don't use any Potassium Metabisulfite or sorbate unless its in a kit with Fpac. Haven't yet had a problem.

I know I know this is not the consensus way.

Knocking on something wooden................................

 

[Chiumanfu]

I eventually developed an AO system for titrating the SO2 involved.

I'd love to see more detail on your testing system?

 

[cpfan]

Sudz:

I have some wines that are 5 years plus old and they are just fine. Most have not had extra K-meta added. Just the amount that came with the kit.

The only wine that I have had go bad (lousy smell and taste) was the very first wine kit that I made. I screwed up the sanitation of the bottles. At 2 years, some bottles were fine, others dreadful.

So I guess my question to you is...how did you clean & sanitize the bottles? That might be the issue.

Steve

 

[saddlebronze]

Could be cork taint. Especially when you use the word moldy.

 

[jswordy]

Wow. Just wow. Alcohol alone, in adequate amounts (generally thought to be above 10% abv) will preserve wine. They have found jugs of wine at the bottom of the ocean that are hundreds of years old, opened them, and found them to be delicious. Those vintners did not have SO2.

BTW, k meta has a max shelf life of 2 years.

 

[Sudz]

I'd love to see more detail on your testing system?

Nothing special about the chemistry. Google aeration/oxidation for titration of SO2. Only critical thing is knowing the exact normality of the NaOH you're using. There's equipment sold out there which provides the setup but really all you need are some inexpensive glassware and an aquarium pump. Several good articles on putting one together but unfortunately I don't have the specific website.

It was helpful I have a chemistry degree and work in a lab environment but it's really not necessary if you just follow the details in one of the articles. YouTube also has stuff on this as well.

 

[Sudz]

Sudz:

So I guess my question to you is...how did you clean & sanitize the bottles? That might be the issue.

Steve

I would have been suspect of sanitation as well but... I've been brewing for years and have never had an infection. I follow the same basic process for my wine/equipment and can't see how that would contribute to the longevity issue. I've got beer over two years old that's still good which is rather unusual for homebrew.

Admittedly, I can't actually say the SO2 is the smoking gun for another year or two. What I can say is my wines are 10ppm or less SO2 (many are zero). I've measured a number of commercial wines and most are greater than 25ppm. I did have one which was 17ppm and it was borderline for drinking. Virtually all I have read on the subject says you're skating on thin ice below 25ppm.

 

[BobF]

I'm immediately suspicious of anything that quotes a simple ppm level for SO2. As we all know, there is more to it than that!

 

[bzac]

Wow. Just wow. Alcohol alone, in adequate amounts (generally thought to be above 10% abv) will preserve wine. They have found jugs of wine at the bottom of the ocean that are hundreds of years old, opened them, and found them to be delicious. Those vintners did not have SO2.

BTW, k meta has a max shelf life of 2 years.

Actualy the Romans discovered the use of sulfur as a wine preservative . Wines on the bottom of the ocean would also be preserved by a combination of pressure , stable low temperatures and no light , so this is hardly a fare comparison .

The Number one flaw in amateur wines in competitions is oxidization number two is microbial issues , both of which are prevented by the correct use of so2



Mastering the correct use of so2 has been the single biggest improvement in my wine making in 5 years , more than anything else .

No more faded flavors , oxidative character , microbe issues etc,
It actualy gives the wine a chance to achieve it's true potential .
The wine won't fade before all the tannins and bouquet come into their own.

Anyone who tells you not to use so2 , is giving you advice that is high risk .
It's ok to not use so2 if you re going to drink your wine as fast as you can . But if you want to age it beyond 2 years , and not have it go down hill before it peaks , master so2 , the single best advice I can give any wine maker. I was an avowed so2 sceptic until I had dinner with Daniel pambianchi over some of my best wines. His feed back was I needed to use more so2. And since then my wines are much better, and I was winning golds before.

I like the vinmetica http://vinmetrica.com/vinmetricas-sc-300-so2-phta-analyzer/, very easy to use and accurate.

 

[Sudz]

I'm immediately suspicious of anything that quotes a simple ppm level for SO2. As we all know, there is more to it than that!

Totally agree... The 25ppm failed to reference anything else, not even pH.

 

[closetwine]

Good point though... There are alot of Newbies that think that stuff is good forever on the shelf... Best to buy smaller quantities and rotate it out than to face the dreaded "dumping time"!

 

[bzac]

I buy a new kilo every year . if I have anything left over from last year I use it for sanitising , year old kmeta is fine for that . but anything that goes in my wine is fresh.

its improtant to store it in an air tight container . I keep all my yeast and additives in separate containers in the deep freeze.

 

[Turock]

And if you don't know the PH of your wine, adding proper amounts of SO2 can be guesswork. A wine with a PH of 3.4 only needs about 30PPM but a wine with a 3.6 PH needs about 60PPM. So you need to know the chemistries of your wine, which many new winemakers haven't yet mastered, in order to give you some direction.

 

[homer]

The Number one flaw in amateur wines in competitions is oxidization number two is microbial issues , both of which are prevented by the correct use of so2

Mastering the correct use of so2 has been the single biggest improvement in my wine making in 5 years , more than anything else .

No more faded flavors , oxidative character , microbe issues etc,
It actualy gives the wine a chance to achieve it's true potential .
The wine won't fade before all the tannins and bouquet come into their own.

Anyone who tells you not to use so2 , is giving you advice that is high risk .
It's ok to not use so2 if you re going to drink your wine as fast as you can . But if you want to age it beyond 2 years , and not have it go down hill before it peaks , master so2 , the single best advice I can give any wine maker. I was an avowed so2 sceptic until I had dinner with Daniel pambianchi over some of my best wines. His feed back was I needed to use more so2. And since then my wines are much better, and I was winning golds before.

I like the vinmetica http://vinmetrica.com/vinmetricas-sc-300-so2-phta-analyzer/, very easy to use and accurate.

I agree with the above. But I have a few questions :
#1 When a Big time vineyard puts out a BIG RED and says not to drink it for 10 years, how do they keep it stable?
#2 Can homies ever hope to keep a wine for 10 years?
#3 Using Midwest Supplies So2 tester I find the wine usually has about 10/20 PPM, using that line of thought why not just put in 20 PPM more and hope for the best?
#4 Because they are easy I use Kmeta tablets, cc. 1/2 gram each, what do other homies do?

 

[Sudz]

When I first started measuring my SO2 and actually could see what was going on, I was surprised to see how much of each addition was bound up. The early additions yielded less than 50% free SO2. Each subsequent addition yielded more. From reading, I was aware of this but not to the degree I observed.... but, this is all new to me so part of a learning curve.

This did make for a few questions.

I can see where those that condition their wines in the carboy have an advantage for being able to manage the SO2 during aging. I assume in 6 months or so the free SO2 stays pretty much where you take the last reading.

However, if one bottles early in the game the SO2 they had at bottling will be something less in a few months. I know my recent Amarone was supposed to have 38 ppm FSO2 at bottling which I did. I can't help but wonder what I'll find after the first year.

 

[bzac]

they keep it stable by using so2 , and sometimes sterile filtering but always very sanitary. and storing it properly , even chateua petrus will go off stored in the hall cupboard for 10 years.

yes I have had many 10 year old homemade wines. but they have to start out as balanced and stable to start with and be made with excellent fruit.
mass cropped very ripe CV fruit doesn't tend to age well even if the winemaker uses correct technique and storage.

you need to match your so2 to PH. a safer approach than just adding 20 ppm and hopeing for the best , athough that is better than adding no so2.

I prefer powdered so2 , easier to use than crushing up tablets, unless you are referring to the alkaseltzer type tablets of kmeta, which are brilliant but expensive.

in a carboy so2 will bind at a slower rate than in a barrel but i would still expect it to drop over 6 months , never assume .

 

[Cincinati]

~~~~~~~~~

nothing else needs

 

[Bartman]

they keep it stable by using so2 , and sometimes sterile filtering but always very sanitary. and storing it properly , even chateau petrus will go off stored in the hall cupboard for 10 years.

yes I have had many 10 year old homemade wines. but they have to start out as balanced and stable to start with and be made with excellent fruit.
mass cropped very ripe CV fruit doesn't tend to age well even if the winemaker uses correct technique and storage.

But of those 10 year old homemade wines, how many were good and how many undrinkable? I suspect there are some 10-year-old+ batches out there made by newbies who didn't care for it or forgot about making it. I haven't been making wine for ten years yet (only ~8), but I have yet to make or taste a kit wine that improved past year 2; prior discussions about kit wine longevity lead me to believe 5 years is probably the max for anything that was 'shelf-stable' as juice. And from what I have read, non-grape fruit wines just don't age well after 1-2 years (with a very few exceptions, of course). Assuming the majority of folks on this forum are making kit wines and don't have access to or can't afford excellent, balanced grapes, is the potential of 10-year-old homemade wine really a concern, or a reasonable goal for us?

It just seems to me that for homemade wine that is to be consumed within one-two years of bottling, SO2 is most valuable for sanitation purposes, because the wine will have limited opportunity to oxidize inside a properly corked bottle for 12-18 months (although SO2 helps a little there too). It never hurts to be careful of course, but if it is only applicable to 1% of the wine that forum-folks make, is the extra effort/testing/additions worthwhile?

 

[JohnT]

To change the subject..

Assuming that this is a microbal problem, then yes, I would agree that K-meta might have prevented this problem. As you say that you have been rather careful, I doubt that this is the problem.

Other, more common causes of oxidation is the PH level of the wine or an all over lack of tannins.

I see that you did not mention anything about PH levels. If your PH level is not set to the proper level, you can get oxidation as a result.

Tannins act as an antioxident and help greatly in presrving corked wine over time.