New guy from Boston/ questions

[Startwining]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to wine making, as a college Biomaterials engineering student a professor asked me to study the microbial kinetics of it and well to make a long scientific story short after reading some posts on this site while researching I figure I could only benefit from your knowledge and experience..

I started a kit Vino Del Vida Cabernet / Shiraz followed the directions carefully however I had a question about adding the freeze dried elderberries. It says to rehydrate in hot water and then just pour into the ferment bucket. After doing so and stirring vigorously they still seem to float.. Is this a problem? Will they eventually sink or will I have to avoid sucking them up when I siphon to a secondary carboy??


Thank you,
After making a few batches of mead I was extremely excited to start my first wine!

 

[Julie]

Hi Startwining welcome to winemakingtalk

 

[robie]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to wine making, as a college Biomaterials engineering student a professor asked me to study the microbial kinetics of it and well to make a long scientific story short after reading some posts on this site while researching I figure I could only benefit from your knowledge and experience..

I started a kit Vino Del Vida Cabernet / Shiraz followed the directions carefully however I had a question about adding the freeze dried elderberries. It says to rehydrate in hot water and then just pour into the ferment bucket. After doing so and stirring vigorously they still seem to float.. Is this a problem? Will they eventually sink or will I have to avoid sucking them up when I siphon to a secondary carboy??

Thank you,
After making a few batches of mead I was extremely excited to start my first wine!

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry, I have never used elder berries, but the practical way of adding small substances to a wine, when those substances can get caught in the siphoning hose, is to put them in a sanitized bag. You can buy paint straining bags at any paint store. Be sure to sanitize the bag before use. But if instead, you leave them loose, they will be a bear to stop up the siphon hose.

Things like elder berries, oak, and grape skins will float, at least for a short time. However, the CO2 gas being generated by the yeast will ALWAYS force these substances and any bag that might contains them, up to the surface within a few minutes after they are pushed down.

So, put them in a paint strainer bag and push them down into the wine and stir them gently about twice a day.

If you have some non-painter, glass marbles, you can sanitize them and put them in the bag. This will help keep them weighted down, but even with several pounds of marbles, the bag will likely still bubble up to the top after a few hours, so you will still need to push the bag down and gently stir at least twice a day.

Hope this helps.

 

[Startwining]

Thanks for a fast response unfortunately being a rookie and strictly following the manufacturers directions for this batch I added them floating freely..

Is there any material preferred for a filter to avoid sucking these up into secondary fermentation??

 

[Runningwolf]

Welcome to WMT, I think Robie was right on with his answer.

 

[robie]

Thanks for a fast response unfortunately being a rookie and strictly following the manufacturers directions for this batch I added them floating freely..

Is there any material preferred for a filter to avoid sucking these up into secondary fermentation??

You can use a sanitized colander to scoop them out or you can rig a screen for the bottom end of the siphon to stop the berries from entering the hose, that will work.

 

[ibglowin]

Welcome aboard!

 

[Flem]

Welcome to the forum, Startwining!

 

[cpfan]

Startwining...

I have made those Vino del Vida kits (and some others) that included the elderberries. I have always done exactly what you did. Yes, they floated. I can't recall if they were still floating when I transferred to carboy, as I haven't encountered any in at least 4 years. But that streak is about to end as my wife and I were discussing the Ken Ridge Classic Vieux Chateau du Roi that includes elderberries.

I didn't have any serious trouble with elderberries when racking to the carboy. I know this because grape skins and elderflowers are the only things that have given me trouble. However, I use an Auto-Siphon and it's structure helps to keep the bottom of the racking tube clear. If the elderberries do get stuck in the anti-sediment tip of your racking tube just shake it back and forth a bit.

Steve

 

[SarahRides]

Hi Startwining!
Welcome! I have a few friends that live and/or grew up in Medford. Great to see someone else from Mass around here.

I made a few batches of elderberry with dried elderberries (haven't tried them yet, they are still in the carboys). I found that some sank, most still floated. Robie had a good idea of using the paint straining bag. I had them free-floating. Most of them I got out using a sanitized colander, but found that it took a few rackings before I finally got the last few stray berries out of the wine. If I ever make it again, I'll probably put them in a bag!

 

[AlFulchino]

and old everett boy here....i am curious to know more about this..."as a college Biomaterials engineering student a professor asked me to study the microbial kinetics of it..."

what is the science of this and its meanings that may benefit some of us here?

 

[Startwining]

Warning for science talk below!

The relation between the specific growth rate of a population of microorganisms and the substrate concentration is a valuable tool in biotechnology.

I have learned fermentation can be defined as an energy yielding process where the yeast converts organic molecules like sugar into energy, carbon dioxide and ethanol (alcohol content). (We see this commonly as the pressure build up that makes the airlocks bubble, no bubbles= no pressure,=no fermentation by theory)

The basic study of this will be to monitor the good bacteria growth over a given time and by using certain equations we can determine the yield coefficients of the bacteria and the amounts of carbon dioxide and ethanol produced ie alcohol content.

My science may be off as of now because I am just beginning research and formulating the experiments, however when I am finished I should have a detailed paper written that I could post to benefit anyone who would like to read it.
Should include some graphs showing the curves of sugars and yeast cell concentrations. This could benefit for a particular wine type because once the graph plateaus there is no more primary fermentation and will show a good read on when is the best date to rack to secondary.

Again as of now I am still researching and really just figuring out how to make wine first, then to apply the science to it after.

If you have any suggestions of stuff I should test feel free to let me know and if I have an available way to do so I will and will give the results.

Finally I can use my Science/Engineering knowledge for some fun rather then just textbook problems and equations!

 

[robie]

Monitoring specific gravity might be something to help in the end. Maybe temperature of the fermenting must, relative to the room temperature. As fermentation racks up, the temperature of the must rises in relation to room temperature. Of course, as fermentation slows, the opposite happens.

I would certainly be interested in your results.

Keep us posted.

 

[WoodRtist]

Welcome, I too am new to the wine making, There's lots of help here on this forum

 

[AlFulchino]

please, if you could...explain this : "yeast converts organic molecules like sugar into energy..."

energy? are you saying that the pressure is an energy? i can see that...wondering if you mean something else as far as energy goes

will you use different yeast strains for your trials?

 

[Startwining]

To start I must say I am still a student, so in no way am I an expert on the subject. But I am happy to try and share the knowledge I have learned.

From a biology standpoint all life forms needs to convert or transform energy rich organic molecules like sugar into some forms of energy that are used to perform cell work. Cellular respiration is the set of chemical reactions where molecules are broken down to release energy.

Two main types of cellular respiration are aerobic (with oxygen) and anaerobic (no oxygen) both begin with glycolysis. Glycolysis is a series of steps converting glucose/ fructose (sugars found in wine) into pyruvic acid.

In humans our cells use aerobic since we need oxygen to survive, I've managed to remember this from a scene in the end of the Movie Fight Club Ed Norton explains how he runs until his veins pump "battery acid" well a human or animal converts pyruvic acid into lactic acid (battery acid) when we are low on oxygen (the end of a long run or hard work out.)

Well in plants (in our case grapes) they convert the pyruvic acid into ethanol and carbon dioxide gas(alcoholic fermentation.)
I have read somewhere that the lactic acid in wine is responsible for reducing the sharpness of the taste.(being 22 I don't have extensive years of wine tasting under my belt)

Earlier someone posted to track the change of temperature of the must compared to the surrounding air temp and it would change, my idea for this is to use some sort of thermocouple and a secondary old school thermometer(while trying to minimize chance of contamination) to track this.

My guess is that the temperature rise is a result of an exothermic reaction by the yeast and glucose/fructose as explained above. When the fermentation is complete ideally there is no more sugars to react this is when the temperature will cool and the dead yeast (lees) will settle and sink. I believe this is also why our specific gravity readings drop rather than rise. Time to rack!

I don't really have an honest answer for why the pressure would build up except for the fact you have a set volume in your container in my case a 7.5 gallon PET ferment bucket and an expanding must, the pressure has nowhere to go except out the airlock. If the pressure could not escape we would have a bomb. You can see how dangerous that is by dry ice and a soda bottle. (DO NOT TRY)

I would ideally like to test different yeast strains in order to fully cover as many factors as I could. However as an undergraduate student I am paying for the costs of the materials out of my own pocket. So depending on the prices of equipment I will need in the future and other expenses I am not sure yet if I will be.

Again if there is any more questions please feel free to let me know. This can only help me learn the material better as well as prepare me for my presentation when the study is finally finished... And the best part, hopefully it can improve my wine making skills!!

 

[AlFulchino]

well this is all fascinating to me....are you a Tufts Univ man? at the very least at the end of your experimental researh you have wine to drink and you are legally old enough to drink it

i am available if you have any questions....folks will give you a ton of info on here..and if the need arises..i am 50 miles north of you just message /email me..let us know what you learn as you go

 

[Startwining]

I wish, growing up in the area I always wanted to attend Tufts but the cost to attend is outrageous. But when life hands you lemons make lemoncello right?? So currently I am at UMass-Dartmouth, who knows maybe some day ill attend Tufts their is always time for graduate school.

Al thank you so much for your willingness to help out a newcomer, if it is not too much trouble when the warmer weather arrives I would like to take a trip north and check out your vineyard. Of course I will bring a bottle or two of my projects finished product to get your opinion and suggestions on.

 

[grapeman]

Warning for science talk below!

The basic study of this will be to monitor the good bacteria growth over a given time and by using certain equations we can determine the yield coefficients of the bacteria and the amounts of carbon dioxide and ethanol produced ie alcohol content.

My science may be off as of now because I am just beginning research and formulating the experiments, however when I am finished I should have a detailed paper written that I could post to benefit anyone who would like to read it.
Should include some graphs showing the curves of sugars and yeast cell concentrations. This could benefit for a particular wine type because once the graph plateaus there is no more primary fermentation and will show a good read on when is the best date to rack to secondary. Good luck it sounds like a fun project.

Again as of now I am still researching and really just figuring out how to make wine first, then to apply the science to it after.

If you have any suggestions of stuff I should test feel free to let me know and if I have an available way to do so I will and will give the results.

Finally I can use my Science/Engineering knowledge for some fun rather then just textbook problems and equations!

You will be studying yeast cells not bacteria. If you are required to study bacteria specifically, you could study the malolactic bacteria, but that should be done with grape juice and not a kit.

 

[AlFulchino]

Would love to have you up for a visit and some wine drinking

Rich, it may have been a confusion w mlf bacteria..being a new wine maker