MLF: My hopes are going down....

[geek]

Decided to start a new thread.
Chilean juice pails: Cabernet Sav and Malbec.

Pitched Lalvin Bacchus with opti-malo and ACTI-ML nutrients on 6/4.
No signs of MLF at all (room very dark and used flash light).

I know that I should be patience.
Decided to call midwest, where I bought it from, and spoke to one of the guys that really knows about this hobby.
He asked me that if this is Chilean juice they come pre-balanced and we should not attempt MLF on pre-balanced juice (just like kits).

He stated that I could wait longer to see if it starts but he doubts it and highly recommended sulfiting the wine before it is too late without being stabilized (too late meaning that the wine needs protection with k-meta).
He re-stated that pre-balanced juice, just like wine kits, should not be attempted to get them through MLF.

I spoke to a different online vendor and he never heard of juice pails being pre-balanced.

The buckets say Toro Negro for the company that imports the juice.
I sent them an email asking this specific question in hopes they can answer.

Have you guys heard about this??

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[joeswine]

balance and fresh juice

It has been my experience that all the fresh juice that I have purchased is balance down to the acidity level ready for you to start the basic process to it.nothing fancy about it, just like a kit only raw,Im not found of MLF to start with.......that's my take on it..

 

[geek]

Have you tried those chilean juice pails from Toro Negro?

 

[shoebiedoo]

Have you tried those chilean juice pails from Toro Negro?

I called the company in Canada that imports the juice and they were less than helpfull, but the numbers he gave me indicated that they were balanced. I was going to double check the numbers but the pH probe that came with my tester isn't working right so I have to wait for another one to come. I do know the some of the California pails are treated with lysozyme and therefore should not go through MLF. I don't think I will ever put a juice bucket through MLF unless I know for a fact the pH is low.
I will say that the 4 buckets I have are all in secondary doing well . I'm comparing 2 verities directly against what I get from L'uva Bella. I'll tell all mid ohio folks how it turns out.

 

[Runningwolf]

So which part is balanced? It's not the acid! They are adjusted to 21 brix.

 

[yakhunter]

For my 2 cents, the first batch I made was a Toro Negro Chilean Malbec fresh juice bucket. I did NOT try to put it through MLF. However, It was recommended by the local shop owner (trusted) that I do so, and it was my intention. I just ran out of time...

Anyway, it apparently went through MLF spontaneously. I thought it might have because of the presence of tiny bubbles, so I bought a test kit and it showed that it had undergone MLF even though I had not added the bacteria. It tastes great. I doubt this helps answer your question, but data are data...

J

 

[geek]

When I emailed Toro Negro in Canada last week about PH/TA levels, here's the response I got:

"Congratulations on your first juice with Toro Negro!

I can give you a range of the pH and TA readings, because I don't have more information on where you purchased or when.

Our juices are released with a range of 3.5-3.9pH and a TA of 2.8-3.5
The target range of SG is 1021 prior to release.

All of our juices vary due to different varietals however if you do your own measurements you should find it within these ranges.

Hope that this helps!

Valeria jasarevic
[email protected]"

Per my ph56, the PH reading for these 2 batches is ~3.14.

So I am very confused, why would the PH vary this much after 1st alcoholic fermentation?

..
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[geek]

Guys, looking closer at the plastic pails, it says:

"Contains fresh grape musts, wine yeast, tartaric acid and tanins".

Is this a clue?

..
Says "Packaged by: The Wine Village Inc, Ontatrio Canada"

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[ibglowin]

Sounds "messed" with to me!

 

[Pumpkinman]

Varis,
Trust me when I tell you that I have the exact same juice buckets.
I recommended MLB VP41 because it is a superior strain of MLB.
Take the flashlight and point it from the back of the neck if the carboy towards you and look very close.
One thing you need to do is NOT make so many adjustments, you won't be able to tell what worked or what caused more issues.
If MLF didn't start, I would purchase VP 41 and re pitch it.
I can tell you yhat my malbec took longer than the cab sav, and the fermentation is so light compared to the cab sav, hardly any visible bubbles.
These juice buckets are not balanced like a wine kit.

 

[geek]

Tom,
Tried the flash light but nope, nothing on either batch.

I'll just wait a couple more days.... :-(

 

[Boatboy24]

Has the temp of your cab come down? Remind me again what the ABV is.

Fingers crossed!

Jim

 

[geek]

Varis,
Trust me when I tell you that I have the exact same juice buckets.
I recommended MLB VP41 because it is a superior strain of MLB.
Take the flashlight and point it from the back of the neck if the carboy towards you and look very close.
One thing you need to do is NOT make so many adjustments, you won't be able to tell what worked or what caused more issues.
If MLF didn't start, I would purchase VP 41 and re pitch it.
I can tell you yhat my malbec took longer than the cab sav, and the fermentation is so light compared to the cab sav, hardly any visible bubbles.
These juice buckets are not balanced like a wine kit.

where did you get yours? I see a 2.5gr good for 66 gal, too much.

The Lalvin Bacchus I used was a 1gr pack for each carboy.

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[Pumpkinman]

Varis,
That's the packet that I purchased, although it is more than I needed, the quality of the product more than justified the cost.

I added opti-malo when I racked the wine to the carboys.

I rehydrated less than 1/8 teaspoon per 6 gallon carboy.

Both carboys are in my office at approx. 68-70 degrees.

At this point I covered the carboys to shield them from light and walked away from them.

Every few days or so I check them.

I'm not sure what the heat tolerance of Bacchus is, but 90 was a bit hot.

At this point I would re pitch MLB if you are certain that it hasn't started.

One question: did you add the opti-malo with the MLB?

I'm using the exact same brand of juice buckets, the Malbec took a little longer to start, and you can hardly see any activity

 

[geek]

Varis,
That's the packet that I purchased, although it is more than I needed, the quality of the product more than justified the cost.

I added opti-malo when I racked the wine to the carboys.

I rehydrated less than 1/8 teaspoon per 6 gallon carboy.

Both carboys are in my office at approx. 68-70 degrees.

At this point I covered the carboys to shield them from light and walked away from them.

Every few days or so I check them.

I'm not sure what the heat tolerance of Bacchus is, but 90 was a bit hot.

At this point I would re pitch MLB if you are certain that it hasn't started.

One question: did you add the opti-malo with the MLB?

I'm using the exact same brand of juice buckets, the Malbec took a little longer to start, and you can hardly see any activity

Tom,

Yes, I added it.
I did a mix of Opti-malo and Acti-ML in a bit of wine in a small container, stirred this up and then added the 1g packet of Bacchus.....then let it sit for about 15 minutes or so, stirred a bit more and added to carboys.

Did you buy your buckets from M&M in Hartford? I think that's where my local HBS gets them but not sure.

 

[robie]

Per my ph56, the PH reading for these 2 batches is ~3.14.
..

I haven't done an MLF for awhile now, so my memory may be off. Isn't the minimum pH for most MLB about 3.30? If yours is that minimum, it will never start at 3.14. You will need a special low-pH MLB.

How long has it been since alcoholic fermentation ended?

Your LHBS is more concerned about having to replace the kit, than he/she is about your wine getting through MLF. Unless it has been a considerable time since alcoholic fermentation finished, if you are protecting the wine from air and limiting head space, you should be able to wait a couple weeks to check if MLF is underway. Sometimes it is really hard to "see" and MLF in progress. If the pH, temperature, and ABV are within tolerance for your MLB, you just might be pleasantly surprised if you check the wine in a couple weeks for malic and lactic acid changes.

 

[geek]

robie, I don't have the used/empty Lalvin Bacchus packets any longer but I don't recall seeing anything about PH values in the writing; it said about the temperature.

Alcoholic ferm ended about May 31 per my notes, I pitched the bacteria on June 4. I first mixed the opti-malo and acti-ml on a bit of juice, then added the mlb and waited 15 minutes before I pitched into carboys.

 

[geek]

from the lalvinyeast.com website, found this about the Bacchus:

"These malolactic cultures are an ideal and economic tool to complete rapid MLF even when the wine pH is as low as 3.1, alcohol to 13.5% and the total SO2 is less than 20 ppm. For best results in volumes up to 23 L, add Bacchus immediately after the alcoholic fermentation is complete and the wine temperature is 18°-24°C (64°-75°F). "

 

[HangenOn]

I would say based on personal experience you cannot use the presence or absence of bubbles as an indication of MLF activity.

I had a carboy of Merlot this year that never showed any activity. The Cabernet sitting beside the Merlot showed all the classic signs (nice tiny bubbles).

It stressed me out until I ran a chromo test. I could tell by the test that MLF was progressing. I tested a few more times before it eventually finished.

 

[robie]

I would say based on personal experience you cannot use the presence or absence of bubbles as an indication of MLF activity.

I had a carboy of Merlot this year that never showed any activity. The Cabernet sitting beside the Merlot showed all the classic signs (nice tiny bubbles).

It stressed me out until I ran a chromo test. I could tell by the test that MLF was progressing. I tested a few more times before it eventually finished.

I agree completely. The only way to really determine MLF is with the proper test and that test is going to take patience on geek's part.