WineXpert Local wine shop

[JD25]

Hi All,


The local wine shop stated that I should not follow the WE instructions, as they are for wine shops in Canada that rush through the process since they are volume driven. The same gentleman also stated thatI should not have de-gassed my riesling with the tool that you use with a drill, as this is only a gimmick. Any truth to his statements???


Also, when I did de-gas, I lost quite a bit of wine due to the foaming. What should I have done differently?


Thanks.


JDEdited by: JD25

 

[myway22]

I don't know JD, most of the top guys in this forum ALL swear on following the directions, and they seem to really know their stuff. What particular steps in the directions did he say you should deviate from?

 

[JD25]

That's what intrigued me...the guys here always say to follow the instructions. Basically, he told me not to de-gas (as racking will do this), have a yeast starter, and a few minor items. I think he was more concerned about the timing of the steps.


I've made two other kits using the WE instructions that have come out great, so I'm wondering why he didn't want me to use them.

 

[masta]

My guess is thatthis is another beer guy selling wine kits! I started with the same type of person and that is why I have a few 6.5 gallon primaries.


I do agree that the instructions do proceed a bit quickly for me on a few steps but you will never go wrong following them and strongly encourage you as a newbie to do this. Over time you will find ways to tweak them to get the best outcome.


I have made 125+ kits in the past 5 years and I will give you my thoughts:


No need for a yeast starter as I was a rehydrater for the first few years and switched to sprinkling and saw absolutelyno difference....so why go through the extra effort and chance a failure due to improper water temperature!


Degassing with the drill mounted stirrer is also a no-brainer since it saves so much time and effort. It also is clearly the best way to completely mix your concentrate and water and add plenty of oxygen for the yeast to start working.


To prevent the wine volcano you need two things...patence and practice. Don't rush into degassing and allow the wine to completely finish fermenting and any time after that allows it to slowly start to degas on it's own. 10 days after transfer to the secondary should be a minimum and I prefer to allow at least 2 weeks (keep it under an airlock and it will be fine).


Getting good with the drill mounted stirrer does take some practice...go too slow and nothing happens and too fast you get a big mess. Try quick short bursts at first until the major amount of gas is released. Remember that the warmer the liquid the less gas it holds so degassing at proper temperature works best (70-75 F) and less you need to force out by stirring.


Racking and allowing the wine to sit in a carboy will degas the wine over a long enough period of time.

Edited by: masta

 

[JimCook]

With the small number of WE kits that I've made, I'd have to say that it seems that Tim Vandergrift & the Boys at WE really work to make the instructions work well. If anything, Tim had provided in forum postings elsewhere that you could wait longer for each step, but I can assure you that no racking has degassed any of my wines. Nothing but some serious drill action and/or some VacuVin workouts took the CO2 out properly for clearing. Others here may have varying comments; this is from my personal experience.


- Jim

 

[JD25]

Thanks for the input. He also said to stir the yeast while fermenting 2-3 times a day. The instrictions specifically state not to. Stir or don't stir?? Edited by: JD25

 

[grapeman]

I think you might want to find another source for your information rather than the gentleman at your local wine shop. He obviously is more into beer than wine. You DO NOT NEED to stir the yeast in. It will find it's own way around and you will get a vigorous fermentation going on it's own with an adequate temperature of about 70 deg F.

 

[Wade E]

The only part of the instruction that I find wrong with the instructions is the part about being able to drink as early as they say. The part about the guy saying to not degas the wine with a mix-stir is bull in my opinion unless he is also telling you not to use the fining agents that came with the kit as the wine needs to be degassed before using the fining agentsn or it will not properly work as I did this by accident and the sediment all sat at the top of my carboy instead of floating down.

 

[Milwood]

So, if I have a WE kit that is at the 10-day mark and supposedly ready to transfer, if I leave it a few more days in the carboy it should be fine?

 

[Milwood]

Clarification: Not ready to transfer but to move to stabilizing and clearing.

 

[peterCooper]

I have come to the conclusion that most of the timing is expressed as a minimum time. You do need to rack from primary to secondary while fermentation is still going on, but after that you can let it ferment to finish and then proceed OR you can let it sit a while longer. Once it has been stabilized you can bottle it when it is clear OR you can let it sit a while longer.

Once it has been bottled you can drink it after the recommended minimum time OR leave it a bit longer. When you look on George's site at each kit you'll see a recommended minimum age and 'peaks at' age. It's the second one that you should be aiming at.

Wine making teaches patience first and foremost.

Edited by: peterCooper

 

[Dean]

Any extra time in the carboy is a good thing for the wine. About the only time you need to be careful, is if you leave the wine in a loose lid primary for greater than 14 days. You can always extend timings once the wine is under airlock in a carboy.

You can also allow a wine to degass naturally, but I find that this takes about 1 year to do properly, in a carboy, at temperatures that are NOT proper to age the wine anyways. Degassing really takes place at 70F or higher. Colder temps than that, tend to keep the CO2 in solution rather than let it out.

Your supplier saying you should not have degassed your Riesling must like fizzy wine. Like Masta said in a previous post, retailers like this should not be selling the product or dispensing advice like this.

Also, you can remind him that only 3 provinces in Canada allow a brew on premise concept, and all the rest are retailers just like him. I'm very glad you asked us for advice. There is a massive amount of *correct* advice to be found here.

 

[JD25]

Wow. I'm impressed with the speed and amount of information you have provided so far. Thanks to all.


At this stage, i've added the various agents and waiting for the wine to clear. I plan on letting it sit for another few weeks; racking an addition 2 times waiting for the particles to fall. Do i need to add K-Meta to make the wine last longer once bottled?

 

[Bert]

One thing I would like to add to all this good advice is, if I have a very full carboy, I will remove about a liter of wine and than start my degassing....gives a little more room for that foam to stay in the carboy and not make a mess...

 

[Bert]

The extra k-meta is a good thing....

 

[grapeman]

The extra k-meta is a good thing....

DITTO that!

 

[geocorn]

Thank you to all that posted advice. It is all right on target.
I might add that the kit manufacturers have made a lot more kits than all of us put together. I would think they would provide only the best advice to achieve the best results.


I would also like to second the post about the timing being the minimum number of days. Except for the first racking, waiting is not a bad thing and is, most likely, a good thing.

 

[smurfe]

In late here as usual but all good advice. As stated, I practice and am very anal about getting my wine from the primary into glass with an airlock. Then all bets are off and I follow a much longer progression than the directions. It is now at least a year from starting the kit untilI bottle it. <?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><O></O>
<O></O>
The not degassing thing is a stump to me. If you follow the directions to the "T" but do not de-gas, you will have fizzy wine. I have a couple kits I DID de-gas with a mix-stir device that are still fizzy. The fizzy part isn't the bad part of it to me, it is the sulfur odor/taste left from the CO2 that gets me. <O></O>
<O></O>
I will say that I was one who had to follow directions to the letter until Winestock 2 years ago and Tim V. gave his presentation. He more or less said watch it for the primary fermentation and get it to glass within the recommended time but then you are free to relax and follow a longer time schedule. <O></O>
<O></O>
One thing to add though is that for a wine kit warranty to be valid, you need to follow the directions. I would never make a warranty claim on a kit unless it was bad on delivery so I don't worry about any of that. I am sure if I have a bad wine; it was my doing and not the manufacturer. So if this is important to you, follow the directions. George can give advice on this though.<O></O>Edited by: smurfe

 

[JD25]

I've added the agents and the wine (Riesling) is clearing nicely. What do you recommend?? Sounds likeI should let it bulk age for a few months as I'm in no hurry. At what point and what amount tdo I add the K-meta? <?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
One more thing....my basement is around 60 degrees. Is this good, bad, or indifferent? I did notice that fermentation took a little longer. What will this do to the rest of the process?

 

[grapeman]

Continue to follow the directions. Instead of bottling in the number of days they say, you might want to just rack to a clean carboy. Before putting the wine in it, take about a quarter cup or so of the wine and add 1/4 teaspoon of potassium metabisulfite to the part cup wine and stir it up. Put that in the carboy first and then rack off any lees(sediment) into the fresh carboy(the one you added the k-meta to). You can then bulk age as long as you feel necessary. After it starts warming up again you may want to try to degas again before bottling. You could also test for free S02 and if it is a bit low add another 1/4 tsp k-meta just before bottling(depends on how long you bulk aged).