Inert Gas

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Alka Seltzer? Now there is an idea, produce CO2 and at the same time treat the hangover that the wine MAY produce (laughing)

I have to disagree with Wade (just a little).

There was a study done at Stellenbosh a lot of years ago that studied the effects of CO2 on the finished wine. They looked at dissolved CO2 and CO2 used to cap the barrels. Though not always distinguishible in the taste, their lab studies showed that most of the CO2 in the barrel caps "disappeard." Further testing showed that this CO2 had reacted with water in the wine and produced Carbonic Acid which was introduced into the wine.
The best bet, then, is to use Argon or Nitrogen in it's pure form. Though the amount of CO2 we are talking about (and the resultant amount of Carbonic Acid) is VERY small, I now use only Argon with a solid stopper or bung.

Bill
 
Mike

The Argon Cylinders have a different thread pattern only used on Argon Tanks. The regulators we normally use are for CO2 and have a completely different thread pattern. Also the Argon is pressurized to a much higher pressure in the tank and is well beyond the top pressures on the normal regulator gauges sold in wine stores. You can by an adapter for the thread problem at any welding supply store. The regulator itself will handle the increased pressure, you just don't get any readable results until the tank is almost half empty.
 
Not a regular on this site but I have to jump in on this topic.

CO2 - CO2 is readily absorbed into wine and very quickly attains equilibrium based on temperature and pressure. Above the wine it is the gaseous form of CO2 but in the wine it is Carbonic Acid. It will affect the taste, TA, and pH. A good example of the flavor effect is try drinking a flat coke. Once all the CO2 leaves the beverage as CO2 gas the coke tastes sickening sweet because there is no carbonic acid to offset the flavor. For this reason using CO2 to purge head space is not ideal.

Layering - Argon and Nitrogen will not layer on the surface of the wine. The idea of using Argon over other gasses because it has a higher molecular weight and therefore will settle or layer on the surface of the wine is a myth. If you are using an inert gs to protect wine what you are doing is purging the head space and therefore excluding O2 containing air. My recommendation is Nitrogen since it has the same air purging abilities but costs less than Argon.

Need to purge - A previous poster has stated a couple of times that he sees no need to purge head space. I disagree and I agree. Depends on the size of the space. All wine needs some O2 to develop. Both white and red wines can become reductive if starved of O2. One of the chief benefits of a barrel is the effect of exposing the wine to small amounts of wine slowly over time. On the other hand, wine can become oxidized if exposed to too much O2. The number one flaw by far in home wine making is oxidation. He is right that moving the wine to a smaller container and minimizing head space is the ideal solution but purging the space with Nitrogen is a good way to go also. A good rule of thumb is to purge the space with 5 times the head space volume to ensure the O2 has been reduced to nominal levels. For that reason a flow meter is much better than the standard welding pressure regulator. I use several of these ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTP-Argon-C...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b74c4d3c ) in my wine making and they work extremely well.

Sorry to be so long winded.
 
Calamity Cellars said:
Need to purge - A previous poster has stated a couple of times that he sees no need to purge head space. I disagree and I agree. Depends on the size of the space. All wine needs some O2 to develop. Both white and red wines can become reductive if starved of O2. One of the chief benefits of a barrel is the effect of exposing the wine to small amounts of wine slowly over time. On the other hand, wine can become oxidized if exposed to too much O2. The number one flaw by far in home wine making is oxidation. He is right that moving the wine to a smaller container and minimizing head space is the ideal solution but purging the space with Nitrogen is a good way to go also. A good rule of thumb is to purge the space with 5 times the head space volume to ensure the O2 has been reduced to nominal levels. For that reason a flow meter is much better than the standard welding pressure regulator. I use several of these ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTP-Argon-C...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b74c4d3c ) in my wine making and they work extremely well.
Click to expand...


Good summary CC, but I think that you miss my point. They are talking about purging just the few cubic inches of air left at the top of a carboy. This amount of air will in no way oxidize 5 gallons of wine left in a carboy. In fact, as you said, there is a benefit to micro oxidation.

All I am saying is that it seems that they are worried over absolutly nothing and are talking about the purchase of flow meters, cylinders, and gas. This, IMHO, is an awful waste of money (that could be spent on grapes or kits).

johnT.
 
I really think the OP and others are talking about more than just a few inches of headspace here. I believe they are actually talking about the large headspace that you have after you rack off the gross lees. That can be as much as 2-3 bottles with these crazy Italian carboys these days. Thats a lot of O2 especially for a White.

Its silly to top up before the wine has cleared (and I have done that as well) only to lose even more after it has cleared and now you have to rack the fines only to top off again with even more wine.....

I like to "backfill" or "purge" the headspace with Argon after I have racked off the gross lees and added the fining agents and I am waiting a week (or sometimes 2 weeks) to clear. This is for kits that are stubborn to clear on their own. Wine from fresh grapes tends clear on its own without the need for much (if any) fining agents.

Totally agree about the need for some controlled micro-ox in wines, especially reds that live (or lived) their entire life in a glass carboy. I invested in small barrels just for this reason. The reds are so closed (from a lack of any oxidation) that they need a week to open up after you uncork one before they start to show their true varietal character....

Just my $0.02.

JohnT said:
They are talking about purging just the few cubic inches of air left at the top of a carboy. This amount of air will in no way oxidize 5 gallons of wine left in a carboy.
Click to expand...
 
The other thing is many places only swap out tanks. So if you go out and buy a brand new one, you will be in for a big surprise when they want to take your new cylinder and give you back on old rusty beat up one......

Check before purchasing on what your local supplier can/will do.

You may wish to purchase a cheap used one locally instead of buying a new one.
 
Calamity Cellars said:
Not a regular on this site but I have to jump in on this topic.

CO2 - CO2 is readily absorbed into wine and very quickly attains equilibrium based on temperature and pressure. Above the wine it is the gaseous form of CO2 but in the wine it is Carbonic Acid. It will affect the taste, TA, and pH. A good example of the flavor effect is try drinking a flat coke. Once all the CO2 leaves the beverage as CO2 gas the coke tastes sickening sweet because there is no carbonic acid to offset the flavor. For this reason using CO2 to purge head space is not ideal.

Layering - Argon and Nitrogen will not layer on the surface of the wine. The idea of using Argon over other gasses because it has a higher molecular weight and therefore will settle or layer on the surface of the wine is a myth. If you are using an inert gs to protect wine what you are doing is purging the head space and therefore excluding O2 containing air. My recommendation is Nitrogen since it has the same air purging abilities but costs less than Argon.

Need to purge - A previous poster has stated a couple of times that he sees no need to purge head space. I disagree and I agree. Depends on the size of the space. All wine needs some O2 to develop. Both white and red wines can become reductive if starved of O2. One of the chief benefits of a barrel is the effect of exposing the wine to small amounts of wine slowly over time. On the other hand, wine can become oxidized if exposed to too much O2. The number one flaw by far in home wine making is oxidation. He is right that moving the wine to a smaller container and minimizing head space is the ideal solution but purging the space with Nitrogen is a good way to go also. A good rule of thumb is to purge the space with 5 times the head space volume to ensure the O2 has been reduced to nominal levels. For that reason a flow meter is much better than the standard welding pressure regulator. I use several of these ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTP-Argon-C...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b74c4d3c ) in my wine making and they work extremely well.

Sorry to be so long winded.
Click to expand...


Lots of good info here. Thanks for posting and stop in more often!
 
ibglowin said:
I really think the OP and others are talking about more than just a few inches of headspace here. I believe they are actually talking about the large headspace that you have after you rack off the gross lees. That can be as much as 2-3 bottles with these crazy Italian carboys these days. Thats a lot of O2 especially for a White.

Its silly to top up before the wine has cleared (and I have done that as well) only to lose even more after it has cleared and now you have to rack the fines only to top off again with even more wine.....

I like to "backfill" or "purge" the headspace with Argon after I have racked off the gross lees and added the fining agents and I am waiting a week (or sometimes 2 weeks) to clear. This is for kits that are stubborn to clear on their own. Wine from fresh grapes tends clear on its own without the need for much (if any) fining agents.

Totally agree about the need for some controlled micro-ox in wines, especially reds that live (or lived) their entire life in a glass carboy. I invested in small barrels just for this reason. The reds are so closed (from a lack of any oxidation) that they need a week to open up after you uncork one before they start to show their true varietal character....

Just my $0.02.
Click to expand...

If that's the case, and the amount of headspace is large, then it is still a waste of time and money. If they are sealing the carboy with a fermentation trap, then any inert gas you inject will be short lived.

As the carboy goes through temperature variations, the gas inside the carboy will expand and contract alternating the internal pressure. As the pressure changes, the gas will be expelled through the f-trap (when pressure increases) and outside air will be drawn in (as pressure decreases). Unless the carboy is given a pressure tight seal, purging the carboy with inert gas is a waste of time!
 
I agree with you that changes in atmospheric pressures and or carboy temperatures do in fact make the carboy "breath". For that reason after I backfill anything I use a solid stopper.
 
JohnT said:
If that's the case, and the amount of headspace is large, then it is still a waste of time and money. If they are sealing the carboy with a fermentation trap, then any inert gas you inject will be short lived.

As the carboy goes through temperature variations, the gas inside the carboy will expand and contract alternating the internal pressure. As the pressure changes, the gas will be expelled through the f-trap (when pressure increases) and outside air will be drawn in (as pressure decreases). Unless the carboy is given a pressure tight seal, purging the carboy with inert gas is a waste of time!
Click to expand...

It is absolutely not a waste of time. The number one wine flaw in amateur wines is oxidation...by far. Any efferts made to reduce oxidation are never a waste of time.

You do make some good points that the winemaker needs to address. In an ideal world, which is rarely the case, wine should not be kept in a situation where temperature fluctuates. This goes for bottled wine and prebottled wine. Everytime temperature changes there is pressure created on the sealing mechanism. If this is a cork in a bottle air will move past the cork. If this is an airlock on a carboy then, as you stated, it is very easy to push the purging gas out and suck air back in. The winemaker in this situation (because we can't always maintain temprature as we should) will have to be vigilant with repurging the headspace. If the carboy has more that an inch or two of headspace in the neck then the wine is at great risk of oxidation. Of course there are no absolutes. An aromatic riesling will be ruined with a small amount of o2 exposure but a big meaty tannic cabernet sauvignon needs more o2 to develop, thus the high end cabs typicaly spen 36 months in a barrel.

I am concerned with your advice that all purging of headspace with inert gas is a waste of time. You are correct in a few instances but definitely wrong in many more.

BTW, the original post was a question of using a 75% argon 25% co2 mix and did not mention the amount of headspace he was trying to protect.
 
Calamity Cellars said:
It is absolutely not a waste of time. The number one wine flaw in amateur wines is oxidation...by far. Any efferts made to reduce oxidation are never a waste of time.

You do make some good points that the winemaker needs to address. In an ideal world, which is rarely the case, wine should not be kept in a situation where temperature fluctuates. This goes for bottled wine and prebottled wine. Everytime temperature changes there is pressure created on the sealing mechanism. If this is a cork in a bottle air will move past the cork. If this is an airlock on a carboy then, as you stated, it is very easy to push the purging gas out and suck air back in. The winemaker in this situation (because we can't always maintain temprature as we should) will have to be vigilant with repurging the headspace. If the carboy has more that an inch or two of headspace in the neck then the wine is at great risk of oxidation. Of course there are no absolutes. An aromatic riesling will be ruined with a small amount of o2 exposure but a big meaty tannic cabernet sauvignon needs more o2 to develop, thus the high end cabs typicaly spen 36 months in a barrel.

I am concerned with your advice that all purging of headspace with inert gas is a waste of time. You are correct in a few instances but definitely wrong in many more.

BTW, the original post was a question of using a 75% argon 25% co2 mix and did not mention the amount of headspace he was trying to protect.
Click to expand...

CC,

Purging a carboy? How much will it cost in equipment and gas to purch a couple of CCs of air out of a max cap 5 gal jug???? Last time I checked, a 5 lb gas cylindar was abount $90, and a regulator was about $40. Not sure what the reminder (hose, clamps, and the gas itself) will cost. This is a LOT of money to protect 5 gallons of wine that may or may not need protecting!

Re-read my last post. I am trying to say that it is a complete waste of time unless the carboy has a pressure seal, locking the wine away from any new air.

About oxidation: It is not just oxygen that causes oxidation. If the wine is PH balanced, and has a good load on tannins, then the wine will not be so vunerable to oxidation. In such cases, a little exposure to air will NOT automatically oxidize the wine. In fact, it ends up being very benificial. I have been making wine for over 25 years and have never needed to purge my wine with inert gas. Last year, I won 35 medals in winemaking competitions without inert gas.

My advice is the same. Save your money and put it towards getting more must! If you still think that using inert gas is money well spent, then we will have to "agree to disagree".
 
Last edited:
Well, I haven't tossed in my two-cents worth, so I am feeling left out.

Just kidding, but here goes mine.

I think one of the reasons why many of us have to decant our home made wines so long, compared to commercial equivalents, is because we go to such extremes to keep oxygen away from our wines. They really didn't get enough of it during the wine making process.

That's not to doubt what was said about the main problem with home made wines in contests is they are oxidized, which I have no problem believing. (Those guys/gals probably haven't tuned into winemakingtalk.com, otherwise they would better know how to avoid oxidation... :D )

As a side, I think getting some micro-oxidation is one of the main reasons why kit wines improve so much in the barrel. It really helps to open up the wine.

Yes, due to atmospheric pressure changes and temperature fluctuations, the carboy does breath. So, if something like argon is added, it can get pushed out and air drawn back in. Remember that argon is heavier than air, so the first thing that gets pushed out of a recently purged carboy will be the air, which is above the argon. Later, more air will be drawn back into the carboy, but the remaining argon will remain under the air and on top of the wine. This action leaves much of the argon still in place, but one cannot guaranty this. This is why it is so necessary to purge again on some sort of regular basis.

I like to save my sediment in a clean, clear glass jar and let it settle out. Once settled, the clean wine can be drawn off the top and used for topping off. This presents a problem. Sometimes it takes a week or more for the sediment to settle. Until the sediment settles, unless you go ahead and top off the carboy with other wine, it sets exposed to air.

If you do go ahead and top off that carboy with other wine, when you finally do draw off the sediment, it won't have a place to be used right away, so it will have to be somehow preserved until it can be used. How do you do that unless the vessel in which that small amount of wine is stored, is also topped off? Keeping it cold will help, but not for long.

The answer for me is this:
Save the racked off sediment in a small glass jar; purge the jar with argon and seal it. For the carboy waiting to be topped off, go ahead and purge it with argon, too. Once the sediment in the jar has settled, draw off the clean wine and put it in the carboy, which was purged with argon. Add a little more argon to the carboy for safety's sake. Purge the carboy again about every week or two.

Argon will not be absorbed into your wine, but CO2 can and will be absorbed eventually. After going to the trouble of degassing, last thing I want to do is add more CO2 to my wine. This is why I would prefer not using CO2 for purging my wine. This is just my opinion, though.

I guess using argon could be considered expensive, but buying all that commercial wine, just for top-off, also adds up. Even though the added commercial wine is not wasted, it still adds to the cost of the batch being made.

In the end, it come down to personal preference. I think every argument made, pro and con, is valid... for the person who made that argument.

Nice thing about our forum is we get to hear all sides, then we can make up our own mind. No better way to grown and learn than that. :b
 
robie said:
Well, I haven't tossed in my two-cents worth, so I am feeling left out.

That's not to doubt what was said about the main problem with home made wines in contests is they are oxidized, which I have no problem believing. (Those guys/gals probably haven't tuned into winemakingtalk.com, otherwise they would better know how to avoid oxidation... :D )

:b
Click to expand...

I know what oxidized wine tastes like. Believe me, I know. I have not had an oxidized wine in more then 10 years. This is without using argon.

Using argon, and thinking that this will prevent oxidation is a pipe dream. 90% of oxidized wine is caused by the wine being not chemically balanced. Monitor your PH and tannins, and forget about argon!
 
Expense

:db As a heating and air-conditioning mechanic, after the vessel purchase and the regulator, gas itself is very in- expensive to refill, and goes on very, very long way, so whether you use argon or nitrogen or nothing at all. However, you get to the end result, that's how You get there, you set your own course and do your own thing, and what ever works best for you is what works. That's the difference between us winemakers we all get there in the end, I don't know how,] it's a mystery.:tz

]
 
I agree monitor you S02 but 80% of home winemakers do not have the ability to do that. In that case you go back to the standard of 1/4 tsp every three months or so. I have yet to check any of my wine and have it over in S02.

I am a firm believer in having argon around. Case in point; this year RJS came out with a 3 gallon port kit. You do not add the flavoring until just before bottling. What do you do with that extra head space? ARGON!!! or any other filler you may use like marbles. I do not wish to age it in several smaller vessals so that is not an option. I don't think most of us are talking about using it as a long term thing but just to get us through to the next step.
 
Incidently I think this is a good thread with a lot of information and opinions. I look forward to any other comments and feelings being posted respectfully.
 
JohnT said:
CC,

Purging a carboy? How much will it cost in equipment and gas to purch a couple of CCs of air out of a max cap 5 gal jug???? Last time I checked, a 5 lb gas cylindar was abount $90, and a regulator was about $40. Not sure what the reminder (hose, clamps, and the gas itself) will cost. This is a LOT of money to protect 5 gallons of wine that may or may not need protecting!

Re-read my last post. I am trying to say that it is a complete waste of time unless the carboy has a pressure seal, locking the wine away from any new air.

About oxidation: It is not just oxygen that causes oxidation. If the wine is PH balanced, and has a good load on tannins, then the wine will not be so vunerable to oxidation. In such cases, a little exposure to air will NOT automatically oxidize the wine. In fact, it ends up being very benificial. I have been making wine for over 25 years and have never needed to purge my wine with inert gas. Last year, I won 35 medals in winemaking competitions without inert gas.

My advice is the same. Save your money and put it towards getting more must! If you still think that using inert gas is money well spent, then we will have to "agree to disagree".
Click to expand...

Uhhhh.....I am not going to argue with you. Congratulations on all of your medals and 25 years of winemaking.

If you choose to not take very common precautions that is your business. To me that is like saying, "Hey, I haven't worn my seat belt for 25 years and never had a problem." So the advice is don't wear seatbelts? Taking precautions is there for the time that you need it not the 25 years that you didn't.
 

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