Help Trimming/Managing Vines

[scubaman2151]

Hi guys.


Well I have these grape vines in the backyard and they have never been properly trimmed or grown. They were there when we bought the house and we would just cut them back when they got too big. Well its time to start doing things right. I don't know how old these are maybe you guys could give me a clue on that, I believe they are at least 19 years old. There are 2 vines and they both are concord vines.

Lol don't worry about the x-mas lights those will come down.

First vine^.

Second Vine^.

Both vines^.

The mangled heap of vines on top of the wires.

Same^.

There used to be vines here, 2 I think but I'm not sure what happened to them. I would like to put 2 new vines into here but do I need to keep them concord vines as well or can I put like a vinifera type grape vine in?
OK update. I went out today and took another more in depth look at the vines. I will be referring to the pics like that first one posted is pic #1, the 2nd one posted is pic #2 and so on.

If you look at picture #2 there is actually 2 separate vines in that picture. The larger more thick one to the left and the smaller one from the right.

Then if you look in that last pic posted to-wards the back right before the back metal pole there is a 2ft-ish long piece of black. That is actually a vine that got cut off somewhere along the way. That is slowing growing back so I would need some advice on how to help that grow in the right direction. (We are supposed to get like 8in of snow tonight but if we don't Ill get some more up close pics for you guys tomorrow.) So in total I have 4 vines. 2 real close together, one by itself, then the one on the far right.

Now if you look at pics 2 the main vine to the right grows up about 1ft then sort of splits off into three trunks (Not sure if thats the right word) but one trunk is a little larger then the others. The second smaller vine to the right of the pic has basically one main vine that goes up into the trellis and then goes into smaller vines. In pic #3 that vine has that one main trunk that you can see then those two smaller trunks.

Now all these trunks feed into the top of the trellis and then all gathers into that big mess on top that you can see. What I was planning on doing was following the main trunks and as soon as the trunks hit the top of the trellis I would start trimming there. Just basically cut everything back except for as far as those trunks go then let the vines grow back this year so I can help them grow in the right direction or as evenly as possible. How does this sound?


Thanks for reading.


Scuba

 

[grapeman]

Well Scuba, I see a lot of potential here. The arbor was probably started with a single vine on each of the six posts. I would work towards that again. The one side has died out. You have a couple options. Transplant the extra smaller one at one of the locations or get a few replacements. Do you want to replace them with more Concords or replace them with some other variety? I cover this first instead of pruning, because getting new vines started takes longer than getting one already established pruned and bearing. Decide what kinds you want and let us know- someone might have a couple for you.


Now for pruning. If you prune too severly this year, you won't get a crop. I would bring the vines back mainly to the bigger wood near the top, pruning most of the smaller canes off, but leave a few of the nice ones about a pencil's diameter running across the top. That will allow new canes to come from the buds on it's length and fill in the top and give you some grapes this year. Let some of the canes come off the main trunks to fill in the sides. This is pruned for an arbor which maximizes the sunlight and air movement. It is different than pruning for a two or three wire trellis. You can develop a slightly fuller arbor as you get other vines on the other side.


I think you have a pretty good idea of how to begin since you have read the book From Vines to Wines.


Keep us in the loop of your progress and let us know what other vines you would like. I think I would stay away from Vinifera since you are in a fairly cold climate and just have a few vines. Have fun Scubaman.

 

[Wade E]

I know absolutely nothing about growing grapes scuba but hope that you can get these in check as my friend had a neighbor with a set-up similiar to this and it was insanely growing grapes. It was like sitting under a grape shaded area like a cabana. Good luck and hope you get the help you need and someday you can teach me.

 

[scubaman2151]

Well I wanted to plant 3 new vines. I was hoping to plant merlot vines, but I didnt know if the temp where I live was to cold. In the last 10 years the lowest temp ever was -2*F. So I think merlot vines would work ok.


Scuba

 

[grapeman]

Scuba, the Merlot would grow, but would be very borderline. They MIGHT survive, but the buds would probably die back most years and you wouldn't get a crop. Here is some information from Cornell on them.





<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>

</TD>
<TD>Merlot</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Origin:</TD>
<TD>Bordeaux, France</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Source:</TD>
<TD>Federal Research Station Geiweilerhof, West Germany</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="50%">Back to Other Reds</TD>
<TD width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Color:</TD>
<TD>Blue/black</TD>
<TD>Fruit Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Mid-late season</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Clusters</TD>
<TD>Medium, cylindrical, shouldered</TD>
<TD>Wood Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Moderately late</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Berry:</TD>
<TD>12-17 mm, round</TD>
<TD>Cold Hardiness:</TD>
<TD>Tender - 2</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Cluster Compactness:</TD>
<TD>Well filled</TD>
<TD>Killing Temperature:</TD>
<TD>-9.4°</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Disease &amp; Disorders:</TD>
<TD>Botrytis, crown gall</TD>
<TD>Relative Vigor:</TD>
<TD>Moderate on C.3309</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Location</TD>
<TD>Year</TD>
<TD>Wt. (lb)</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD>
<TD>(grams)</TD>
<TD>(Tons/Acre)</TD>
<TD>Date</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Fredonia</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.4</TD>
<TD>69</TD>
<TD>117</TD>
<TD>2.1</TD>
<TD>34629</TD>
<TD>21.7</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>2.5</TD>
<TD>56</TD>
<TD>79</TD>
<TD>2</TD>
<TD>34616</TD>
<TD>20.4</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>54</TD>
<TD>112</TD>
<TD>3.1</TD>
<TD>34599</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>60</TD>
<TD>103</TD>
<TD>2.4</TD>
<TD>34605</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Geneva</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>0.7</TD>
<TD>78</TD>
<TD>108</TD>
<TD>2.4</TD>
<TD>34624</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>2.1</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>136</TD>
<TD>4.5</TD>
<TD>34620</TD>
<TD>--</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>3.1</TD>
<TD>67</TD>
<TD>98</TD>
<TD>3.3</TD>
<TD>34592</TD>
<TD>18</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>2</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>114</TD>
<TD>3.4</TD>
<TD>34612</TD>
<TD>19.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Hudson</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Valley</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>0.8</TD>
<TD>51</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>34600</TD>
<TD>17.3</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>0.6</TD>
<TD>63</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>0.9</TD>
<TD>34593</TD>
<TD>20.3</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>0.7</TD>
<TD>57</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>34596</TD>
<TD>18.8</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Long Isle</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.9</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>1.2</TD>
<TD>34611</TD>
<TD>17.4</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>3.8</TD>
<TD>56</TD>
<TD>117</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>34614</TD>
<TD>22.8</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>4.9</TD>
<TD>72</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>34614</TD>
<TD>Rot</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>3.5</TD>
<TD>43</TD>
<TD>92</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>34613</TD>
<TD>20.1</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Summary:</TD>
<TD>Botrytis infections are not uncommon, but not a major problem in most years. The trunks are winter tender and subject to crown gall attack. Perhaps a more restirictive rootstock would help attain wood maturation. Because it ripens before the o</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Recommendations:</TD>
<TD>Can only be recommended for superior sites.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="50%">http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/vinfvar/otherreds.htmlBack to Other Reds</TD>
<TD width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>






If you want vinifera, a better choice would probably be Cab Franc- much hardier and ripens relatively early. It is one of the parents of Cab Sauvignon..

























<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD> </TD>
<TD>
<H1>Cabernet franc</H1>
<H1>
<TABLE height=29 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=174><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="50%" height=17>Back to Red Variety List</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=middle width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

</H1></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Origin:</TD>
<TD>France</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Source:</TD>
<TD>Austin Goheen University of California, USDA Davis, California</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
Color:</TD>
<TD>blue/black</TD>
<TD>
Fruit Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Late</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Clusters:</TD>
<TD>Medium, conic often winged</TD>
<TD>
Wood Maturity:Moderately late</TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Berry:</TD>
<TD>11-13 mm, round</TD>
<TD>
Cold Hardiness:</TD>
<TD>Hardy - 5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Cluster Compactness:</TD>
<TD>Loose</TD>
<TD>
Killing Temperature:</TD>
<TD>-16.6°F</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Disease &amp; Disorders:</TD>
<TD>None</TD>
<TD>
Relative Vigor:</TD>
<TD>Medium to high on C. 3309</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Location</TD>
<TD>Year</TD>
<TD>Wt. (lb)</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD>
<TD>(grams)</TD>
<TD>(Tons/Acre)</TD>
<TD>Date</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Geneva</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.8</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>87</TD>
<TD>3.5</TD>
<TD>34259</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>4.3</TD>
<TD>88</TD>
<TD>150</TD>
<TD>6</TD>
<TD>34255</TD>
<TD>15.2</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>5.2</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>2.7</TD>
<TD>34247</TD>
<TD>20.7</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>3.8</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>107</TD>
<TD>4.1</TD>
<TD>34251</TD>
<TD>19</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Long Isle</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>105</TD>
<TD>7.7</TD>
<TD>34241</TD>
<TD>18.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>5</TD>
<TD>75</TD>
<TD>111</TD>
<TD>3.9</TD>
<TD>34249</TD>
<TD>21.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>5.9</TD>
<TD>82</TD>
<TD>101</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>34249</TD>
<TD>20.6</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>4.8</TD>
<TD>52</TD>
<TD>106</TD>
<TD>5.1</TD>
<TD>34246</TD>
<TD>19.4</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
Summary:</TD>
<TD>Vine and fruit is similar to Cabernet Sauvignon, but growth is more moderate, canes ripen earlier and are more winter hardy, approaching that of White Riesling in most years. Fruit ripens with or slightly before Cabernet Sauvignon. In France the variety</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Recommedations:</TD>
<TD>Recommended for areas with a long growing season.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

<TABLE height=29 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=174><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="50%" height=17>Back to Red Variety List</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=middle width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>Edited by: appleman

 

[grapeman]

Scuba, I don't have any Merlot and just 25 Cab Franc planted last year so I can't speak for them. Another non-vinifera vine you might consider is Corot Noir. It is a very promising cold hardy variety that would be well suited to your site. Here is a link to a pdf file describing all about it. I could let you get 3 of them this spring when the ground thaws for just the cost of shipping to you.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/reisch/bulletin/Corot_noir.pdf


Here is a picture of the clusters.

 

[scubaman2151]

I talked to Double A vineyards and here is what they told me:


"The Merlot grapes are probably the most difficult variety that we
carry to grow. They are probably too tender for where you are and would
require a pretty good spray regimen to keep them disease free. You may
want
to consider Chambourcin or Noiret as an alternative. Sue"


Do you guys know anything about either of the vines she recommended?


Thanks for the reccomendations so far as well. I am tending to shy away from the Cab Frac right now because im not sure how close of a taste it has to Cab Sav. I really dont like Cab Sav too much.Edited by: Scubaman2151

 

[grapeman]

Noiret grapes are one of the newly released varieties from Cornell that were extensively tested. I have a bit of experience with them and they grow well even up here. The are pretty early ripeners so they should be great there. They are lighter on the heavy tannins than is Cab Franc and Corot Noir, so if you don't care for those heavier attributes, than Mpoiret should work very well for you. Here is a bit of information on them.


A mid-season red wine grape suitable for the production of varietal wines that will be richly colored with notes of greenand black pepper, raspberry and mint aromas, and fine tannin structure.
‘Noiret’™ is a complex interspecific hybrid red wine grape resulting from a cross made in 1973 between NY65.0467.08 and‘Steuben’. Moderately winter hardy. Moderately resistant to powdery mildew, black rotand botrytis bunch rot.Downy mildew can occasionally be a serious problem.Spring frost not usually a problem. Budbreak usually takes place after Concord and GR7, but before most V. vinifera cultivars.
Harvested between late September and early October. No special problems with machine harvesting.Excellent wine quality – superior to other red hybridvarieties.
Overall Recommendation - ‘Noiret’™ represents a distinct improvement in the red wine varietal options available to cold-climate grape growers. Wines are free of the hybrid aromas typical of many other red hybrid grapes. Care should be taken to grow ‘Noiret’ on sites less susceptible to extreme winter temperatures, and downy mildew.
•• ••• •••


<DIV align=center>
<DIV align=center>
<DIV align=left>I don't have any experience with Chambourcin, but there are good things said about that older variety.

 

[scubaman2151]

I am going to head to the store and get a bottle of Cab Sav and Cab Franc and re-try those two and see how they are again. Then I will go from there. Are any of these going to need to be sprayed?

 

[grapeman]

Unfortunately Scubaman, pretty much all grapes along the east side of the Mississippi will need some sprays. You can reduce the number of sprays with certain cultural practices and can get away with just a few per year on the drier years. You don't need to use chemicals as there are some organic sprays that you can use to reduce or prevent most diseases. With just a few vines you don't need to worry much about most insect pests.

 

[scubaman2151]

Any idea what I would need? Also I have a dog how would these chemicals effect him? What happens if I dont spray?


Scuba

 

[grapeman]

I won't get into a discussion of what sprays to use. You can read labels at the garden centers or ask there what you can legally use in your area. You can also ask a local extension agent for recommendations. I will say that you can use quite safe materials for home use. One such material is simple baking soda for powdery mildew- as an example. It not only helps prevent it, it also will kill it to some extent. Some guys spray with milk with limited sucess. Ask what diseases you have locally and what can be used.


You can also help limit disease pressure by keeping the foliage far enough appart to allow better air movement. This slows down diseases from getting established. Lots to the subject. You can't get a really quick simple answer. It will need to come in time.


Get the vines in and growing and the old ones pruned first. You won't need a lot of spray for the first year.


Here is a link to a site with other links to tons of information- especially Cornell. They are one of the leaders on the east coast in research and development of new varieties.


http://pss.uvm.edu/grape/

 

[rodman]

Scuba if I remember correctly you live in the Cleveland area, if not this post may not help. I planted 50 vines last year and researched Chambourcin grapes. What I found was that they would be very borderline for our area and may need special care to have them winter. I decided being a novice that I wanted varieties that would give me a better chance at success. I did in fact plant Corot Noir and Noreit as 2 of the 5 varieties that I planted.

 

[scubaman2151]

Yes you are correct I am in Cleveland. East side. I hear were getting more snow tonight . What do you think of the Noreit? I am kinda on the fence between the Cab Franc and the Noreit.


Scuba

 

[rodman]

I only plantedmine last spring, so I can't give youmuch info. I'm sure appleman can give you better advice. I do think you will be better off with either of them than the Chambourcin unless you are right on thelake. If you live close enough to the lake you maybeable to plant a less hardy variety.

 

[grapeman]

Scuba, unless you are hung up on a vinifera grape, I woild go with the Noiret. Cab Franc will be borderline also for your location- will ripen in a good year, and other years will be a low sugar acid monster. The Noiret was bred in NY and is ideally suited for your locale. I have had Noiret grapes to try, but didn't get to make wine with any last year. They are a truly impressive looking grape and the taste is much more vinifera like than other hybrids. I currently am growing them and will be looking forward to vinifying them in the next year or two.


I also have Cab Franc planted, but don't expect them to make it some years to ripening. They were to slowest growing smallest vines I planted last year.

 

[scubaman2151]

Works for me. You have persuaded me, I am going to get the Noiret. I will contact Double A Vineyards Wednesday to find out when these need to be planted.


Scuba

 

[grapeman]

I would estimate you would want to plant them between Mid and Late April where you are(if the snow has melted and ground thawed).


If you are given the choice between 1-yr and 1X-yr you might want the larger ones. They have more root reserve to them and will get off to a faster start. You will dig a bigger hole and they will potentially give you a better vine for mere pennies extra. I just checked and see they only have #1 - 1 year vines right now in own rooted and grafted. Check with them and they might have a few larger ones though.
Good luck whatever you plant.

 

[scubaman2151]

Thanks, Ill be sure to keep you updated.


Back to the other old vines. When I prune those back I want to prune anything smaller the the size of a pencil right? Everywhere and anywhere, if its under a pencil size it get pruned?


Scuba

 

[grapeman]

That would be a start but don't prune excessively at first. You will need some one year wood(smooth bark and a copper color) for the new growth to come from and get grapes from. It has gotten quite stringy the last couple years. Let some stuff grow a bit even if it is just a little small. You can prune some more out next year to get it a bit better shape. Watch it as it grows this year and you begin to get a feel for what the different types of bark and wood are. Edited by: appleman