RJ Spagnols First Yeast-Blending Experiment with D80 & D254

[cocroach]

I have chosen two different yeast strains for the RJS RQ 2014 Spanish Monastrell-Petit Verdot kit to hopefully bring out its flavour profile of black fruit, smoke and cedar and maximize on body.

My plan is to split this kit into two 3 gallon batches and use the Lalvin ICV-D80 (enhance mouthfeel, tannin intensity, smoke and licorice) and ICV-D254 (mid-palate and spicy finish). I would like to then bulk age for some time before blending a portion of it and keeping some separate to see how these yeasts have affected the wine.

This would be my very first time using these yeast strains, blending and bulk aging a wine kit.

Some questions:
Firstly…is this even a good idea??
If so, do I need to add any other additives into the primary with these yeasts?
Lastly, if these yeasts are supposed to bring out tannin intensity, should I add oak? If so, what type and toast-level? I was thinking to add this during the bulk aging stage to hopefully achieve a more complex and longer lingering finish.

I should mention that I am looking to hopefully end up with a kit that doesn't have that strange “kit-taste” that I have consistently tasted and smelled on all of the kits I have made so far (RJS WS, CC Sterling, Meglioli). The taste is not horrible, but I am getting a little tired of coming across the same thing, and not being able to taste or smell other characteristics of the wine. I’m hoping that by selecting yeasts to enhance specific flavours it will either eliminate, or at least mask the kit-taste somewhat.

Feel free to let me know if I am ‘out-to-lunch’ on any of this, or if I’m biting off more than I can chew. Feedback would be appreciated!

 

[sour_grapes]

My opinions, for what little they are worth:

-Yes, I think it is a good idea. Should add some complexity.
-Personally, I would rehydrate the yeast using a yeast energizer and add nutrients to the must.
-Can't advise you on oaking. Offhand, I would think that the amount by which the yeast "bring out the tannins" is not sufficient to change whether or not you wish to oak.
-I really doubt that this is going to solve the KT problem.

 

[Boatboy24]

I'll second everything Paul said. Regarding the tannins, that will be a matter of personal taste that you can adjust as necessary through the process.

Those two strains are very complimentary and are often used together. I have that kit waiting in the wings, but don't recall - which yeast did it come with?

 

[SouthernChemist]

I have this kit waiting in the wings, myself. Blending wines that have been fermented with different strains is certainly done in wineries. I think your general plan sounds good. These two strains should work well together in the end. Keep in mind that the effects of different strains can be more subtle at times.

Different yeast strains have very different nutrient dependencies and fermentation properties. Rehydration and upfront nutrient additions are not a bad idea, and additional nutrients later in the fermentation would be beneficial. Do not treat these like you would the EC-1118 or whatever yeast came with the kit. I also advice you to keep an eye on the fermentation. That way, if there are any issues, you can try to deal with them quickly. Some strains will produce off-flavors if they become stressed.

As far as oak is concerned, that is up to your taste. Personally, I would stick with the oak that came with the kit and then, after bulk aging and seeing how the individual wines have developed, decide on whether you wish to add more.

I'm not sure if this would really make a difference with the 'kit taste' effect. There's a whole debate over the nature of that effect, and not everyone can even taste it. Bulk aging and barrel time seem to be effective at dealing with it. I would consider it an experiment and keep an open mind.

 

[cocroach]

I certainly appreciate all of the helpful advice, especially with respect to use of nutrients.

I'm going to get this one going over the weekend and I'll probably end up adding dark or medium toast Hungarian oak during the bulk aging stage. I also might add some RJS liquid grape tannin before bottling time on a few test bottles to see if I can try to achieve an almost bone dry level of tannin that I have thoroughly enjoyed with some of the commercial red wines I have had from Spain. I have never used the stuff so this will be new learning too!

 

[byathread]

I like the way you're going with this, taking the description and trying to compliment or enhance those characteristics. I think separating the batch into 2 to using those two complimentary yeasts is also a great idea. I've used D254 and am a fan. I'm with SoutherChemist on the oak. Many on WMT add additional tannin to all their reds and I'm pretty well in that camp too.

I would strongly encourage you to do bench-testing on the blend. But whatever you decide, I think it would be nice to have a few bottles with the individual yeasts to see how they compare down the road, as well as the blend.

 

[SouthernChemist]

I would strongly encourage you to do bench-testing on the blend. But whatever you decide, I think it would be nice to have a few bottles with the individual yeasts to see how they compare down the road, as well as the blend.

A fair point. You may find the ideal blend is not just a 1:1 mixture of the two. Something to consider down the road, though.

 

[cocroach]

Yes, I definitely plan to keep aside some bottles with the single strain a just to observe how noticeable the differences are. Somehow I've accumulated a multitude of different carboy sizes which should allow for more flexibility for blending. I'll definitely do some bench trials to find a blend proportion I like, as opposed to doing just a 1:1.

Thanks for all of the tips! I'll post whatever results I get in case anyone out there is looking for info.

 

[seth8530]

Sounds like a really good idea, be sure to keep good notes! I blended a hot and cold fermented Pinot noir with each other and it defiantly was very good for the wine. It was also a really good learning experience for my pallet. I am sure what ever comes of this will be good so long as you keep the yeast properly happy.

 

[SouthernChemist]

Sounds like a really good idea, be sure to keep good notes! I blended a hot and cold fermented Pinot noir with each other and it defiantly was very good for the wine. It was also a really good learning experience for my pallet. I am sure what ever comes of this will be good so long as you keep the yeast properly happy.

Out of curiosity, how different were the two batches of wine? Did you end up just blending them completely together or in different proportions? I can definitely see how that can help out a wine like Pinot.

 

[seth8530]

Out of curiosity, how different were the two batches of wine? Did you end up just blending them completely together or in different proportions? I can definitely see how that can help out a wine like Pinot.

Very different. They were both definintly Pinot Noir, but the cold one was a lighter ruby colour while the hot guy was a darker kind of garnet. I will give you this quote from my fall wine thread to describe the differences. Currently the batches are being kept separate just so I can see how they change differently over time. But at 7 months I feel like I have a DECENT idea of how the fermentation temperature will play out in the long term. I plan on blending them together at around a 50-50 ratio ( that was about what we mixed them at in the sample glass) prior to bottling.

"Cold

Aroma
Fresh dark berry
Oaky
Less smokey than hot counterpart

Taste
Creamy
Berry forward
Low mouthfeel
Not very complex

Warm

Aroma
Smokey
Light dark berry (dried berry)
Oaky

Taste
Tannic
Woody
Smokey
Not fruit forward
Not really creamy

Blended


Aroma
Fresh Dark Fruit
Oaky
Smokey


Taste
Fruity
Oaky
Creamy
Smokey
Nice mouthfeel and appropriate tannins
"

 

[cocroach]

Seth, sounds like you ran quite an experiment! I read the post. Excellent stuff! It sounds like you got some nice results with the AMH and the other techniques you applied. (I had no idea about these hot and cold methods.)

I have some of the AMH on hand that I'd like to use with some other yeast strain on a Primitivo / Zinfandel and also blend. We'll see how this one goes!