few questions about stuck fermentation

[Zule]

edit: My lastest update: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...uck-fermentation-45566/index4.html#post520631

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It seems several of my wines do not ferment fully when I add sugar. Ive had this happen to some grape concentrate wines and a few other ocean spray wines. This was all before I was using a hydrometer so I got no exact numbers.

Few weeks ago I read post on this forum saying fermenting water works ok (either after carbon filter (which I got many not being used) and/or coolaid mix once its done). I figured id give it a try with tap water and sugar with a SG of 1.1 a try with my Red Star Premier Cuvee. If it all went horrible wrong id be out under $5.


May 11th: 1.100 reading on SG. Also added about 3/4th of tsp of meta-k. Sealed with with plastic bag and elastic.
May 12th: Put in 1 tsb of yeast nutrients . Put in one pack of premier curver yeast. Added coffee fitler on top with elastic and just a loss bag on top (to give it oxygen).
May 13th: Bubbles going good, added airlock.
May 14th: SG: 1.096 but very bubbly due to yeast, may not be accurate
May 18th: SG: 1.090. Was bubbly for last 4 days. After taking SG I stirred it.
May 21th: SG: 1.089 in 3 gallon carboy.


Why do you think its slowed down and almost stopped? This always seems to happen when I use lots of sugar, it goes fine for about a week then slows down big time. The sugar water looks fine and smells fine.

I do not care much about the sugar water wine batch, but tonight I also started two new apple wine batches and I do not want it to happen to them. Both these batches are sort of a test, as the highest ive ever gone with apple wine before was about 10% (before hydro reading so its just an estimate)

My two new apple juice batches:
Batch 1# SG 1.088 (12% potential) about 3.5 gallons in 5 gallon carboy.
Batch 2# SG 1.110 (15% potential) about 4.9 gallons in 5 gallon carboy.

Both added meta-k, both Allens juice, and both currently sitting in carboy until tomorrow (waiting 24 hours) to add yeast. I think I will use 7112 yeast on both(instead of the Red Star Premier Cuvee) and about 2 tsb of yeast nutrients on both .

What can I do to help these batches not get stuck? I was thinking of maybe using both 7112 yeast, and adding two packets to the SG 1.11 batch (ive never added two yeast packets before)?

 

[sour_grapes]

My understanding is that fermenting plain sugar water is difficult to get right. Basically, the nutrients and pH are all wrong for the yeasts you use. You said you added "1 tsb" (tablespoon? teaspoon?) of nutrients. However, we don't even know the volume of the liquid you were trying to ferment. Is it 3 gallon, as I think I infer from the last step. I have no idea if that amount of nutrient is sufficient for 3 gallons of plain water, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[Zule]

Its a 3 gallon carboy with 1 tsp of super nutrients (direction say 1/2 tsp. per gallon, I was going to add the last 1/3rd a little later). But doesnt wine start smelling a little weird when it does not have the nutrients due to it being stressed?

Should I add the last 1/2 tsp now?

I am also looking at getting the HM Digital PH-80 ph HydroTester. Good choice?

 

[sour_grapes]

What directions?

Yes, my understanding is that yeast will generally exude bad odors (H2S) before dying, but I think this is not guaranteed.

Sure, I would add more nutrients now. What have you got to lose?

 

[Zule]

What directions?

I purchased it from a wine shop. thats the direction on the bottle (printed label on a bottle). When I ask them what it was made from I think they told me aminoate sulphates

Sure, I would add more nutrients now. What have you got to lose?

ok just added 3/4 of a tsp. It did its usual mad mass gas release and my airlock had 2 bubbles per second for a minute. I will see how things look tomorrow.

As for my apple juice wines. Adding two packets of yeast to the 3 gallon wont hurt anything right?

 

[Zule]

dupe... ignore.

 

[Turock]

Poor nutrient management is usually the culprit for a ferment not finishing. There is no need to add 2 packets of yeast. When you use nutrient, you have to step-feed it thru the ferment so that the yeast continues to have the nitrogen it needs for reproduction. Calculate the total nutrient dose depending on how many gallons you're making then divide it in half. Pitch the first half when the yeast becomes active, and the second half when you get to 50% sugar depletion. If you always step-feed nutrient, your ferments will always complete.

 

[Zule]

Well this morning it looks like its back to its slowed down state (barely any bubbles)

Poor nutrient management is usually the culprit for a ferment not finishing. There is no need to add 2 packets of yeast. When you use nutrient, you have to step-feed it thru the ferment so that the yeast continues to have the nitrogen it needs for reproduction. Calculate the total nutrient dose depending on how many gallons you're making then divide it in half. Pitch the first half when the yeast becomes active, and the second half when you get to 50% sugar depletion. If you always step-feed nutrient, your ferments will always complete.

That was my plan, I added slightly more then the instructions (as there was a lot of sugar) and I was going to add more once it it the 50% mark, but it never even got close to the 50% mark.

 

[beggarsu]

Got this problem with a Kilju (sugar wine for diluting mix with a problem wine wine) and a DB.
Didn't notice last week the weather turned chill especially at night and they were in the back hall. Didn't even realize it til I took the SG of Kilju for first time at day 6 and what!!!. I usually don't bother taking SG every day

Kilju (sugar wine) got the worst of it in the worst place - almost stalled completely -nursing them both back to health with temperature over 70 (to 80) + stepped yeast nutrient.

Dragons Blood (with wild blueberry packs) looks healthy - at 1.007 and vigorous activity - wouldn't know there was a problem except this is day 7 when it is usually dry.

Kilju is sluggish but there is still activity with added nutrient and warmth. SG at 1.027 Ran out of EC-1118 can't get any til store opens on Monday . may or may not need it - might add slurry from the finished DB. Added 40 ml of the DB to it this afternoon. This is day 11 so it seriously stalled but is not lost.
And now I know - once it is stalled it is hard to get back on track -problem also was I had no time to get up to the store and get more EC-1118 these last few days- that's another lesson - to have it on hand.

Almost everything I ferment is finished at day 6 as I usually do it in very warm temps. This was a mistake.

---
My leftover Kilju - maybe have a couple gallons (after I do a mix with my problem wine) I will probably mix with various extracts and/or kool-aid just for fun. eg mix in 2 litre pop bottle with one packet of kool-aid - try various flavors - or looking at other flavour food extracts at the supermarkets - they have to be pure flavour - no sediment to fall out..

 

[Zule]

ok I attached my wine heating belt to my Batch 2# SG 1.110 (apple juicer) in the hopes I can keep it there for a few weeks so it will help in fermentation while not burning my house down.

Tomorrow I will also go to another wine store and buy another yeast nutrient (this one has the manufacturer package) in the hopes it will have something that my current one is missing.

edit: I also took SG of the water wine earlier today and the SG has not changed from last night. if it completely stalls out I might let the yeast settle to the bottom, rack it without any old leese and put in a new 7112 to see what happens.

 

[beggarsu]

ok I attached my wine heating belt to my Batch 2# SG 1.110 (apple juicer) in the hopes I can keep it there for a few weeks so it will help in fermentation while not burning my house down.

Tomorrow I will also go to another wine store and buy another yeast nutrient (this one has the manufacturer package) in the hopes it will have something that my current one is missing.

edit: I also took SG of the water wine earlier today and the SG has not changed from last night. if it completely stalls out I might let the yeast settle to the bottom, rack it without any old leese and put in a new 7112 to see what happens.

So you think the old died/stressed yeast might be toxic to new yeast?

hmm interesting... I don't know -

Maybe yeast energizer can overcome that. I threw in ( Kilju - my 3 gallon + approx batch) some yeast energizer 1/2 tsp (it's all I had) and nutrient 1 tsp today , stirred well , and warm here today so I put it in a room that catches heat and gets hot. It's sparkling very well now, I think i beat it.

If not tomorrow , i get to the store and get some EC-1118 (and also restock my energizer) and do a yeast starter and pitch it.

 

[Turock]

Yes--yeast energizer is very good for restarting stuck ferments, or a complete nutrient such as is Fermaid K. Be sure to follow a good restart protocol.

 

[Zule]

Update: The new YN I purchased is DAP, its this white crystal powder (as opposed to brown mystery powder of YN 1#). I was optimistic it would solve all my problems, but looks like batch 2# is slowing down.

Batch 2 (~14 liters) seems to have slowed down a lot, gave it a taste and its completely undrinkable due to sugar (hoping the pinch or YN and energizer will help it), its been under heat the entire time:

May 22nd: SG 1.11, 100% vit c apple juice
May 24th: Added airlock. Added 1 tsb YN #2 and 1/4 tsb of YN 1#
May 25th: SG 1.06. Still about a bubble per second. Added 1 tsb of YN 2#
May 26th: SG 1.034. Added a little under pinch of YN 1# and 2# and stirred top 2" or so.
May 28th: SG 1.018. Bubbles appart 6-7 seconds or so.
May 30th: SG 1.012. little foam at top, see no bubbles in airlock or wine. Added 1 pinch of Yn 1#, 2# and yeast energizer.

Its like there was wild fermentation going on the first 4 days then it slowed down (0.076 in 4 days). Perhaps I should of put in more DAP in the early stages? Its been under heat the entire time.


Batch 1# (23 liters) seems it be going ok and on track (added YN again at 1.043 the right time correct?).

May 22nd: SG 1.088, used mostly 60% vit c apple juice on bottles with concetrate. Used meta-k. Put heater on it. And coffee filter on top. Note: Not much activity.
May 24th: Added carboy. Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#
May 25th: SG 1.082. Bubbles over last night and had to do 2 changes today.
May 26th: SG 1.072.
May 28th: SG 1.060.
May 30th: SG 1.043. Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#

 

[Turock]

You may need to make a yeast starter and add the wine in several doses to the yeast starter until you get it all in there. It's very problematic not to have a good nutrient management program or this is what happens. DAP is fine--but at this time you might need Fermaid K and Go Ferm if the sugar levels are still high. Spoilage organisms can compete for the nutrient and they release metabolites that inhibit yeast growth. You might need to add lysozyme before restarting the ferment in order to clean it up for the new culture. Adding yeast hulls before restarting can also reduce the accumulated toxins.

 

[Zule]

Unfortunately I do not have neither of those available on my town.

How about this to restart:

Start a little over a gallon in a 6 gallon carboy. Once yeast get going good:
- add ~0.75 gallons of stuck, wait a few days
- add ~1.25 gallons of stuck, wait a few days
- add the last ~1.5 gallon of stuck

If this was for caused due to 'Spoilage organisms' how did they get in there? The air? Or perhaps I should of boiled my sugar first?

 

[Stressbaby]

Zule,
1. Why do you have an airlock on it?
2. What are the temperatures of the must?

Generally the recommendation here is to not add nutrients once past 1/2 or 2/3 fermentation so that there is no leftover available nutrient for spoilage organisms.

From what I see here, batch #2 is fine, I wouldn't do anything other than move from primary to secondary (put it under airlock).
Batch #1 is slow but I wouldn't do anything other than watch the temp and stir twice a day.

2 cents from a relative newbie...

 

[Turock]

Not knowing exactly what kind of techniques you used, how much sulfite used before fermentation,etc. makes it tough to know how the ferment ran off the rails. But stuck ferments are almost always due to lack of nutrient management. You MUST provide a high sugar must with correct amounts of nutrient at the times the yeast needs it.

Fermaid K, Go Ferm, etc. is widely available--Morewine carries it as do many other suppliers. Yeast hulls too. Yes, adding the stuck wine a little at a time as you describe is the correct method. Don't forget the nutrient too. But if it dies out on you again, you'll know that the ferment is now kind of dirty with toxins and your only chance is the protocol I stated above.

 

[BernardSmith]

ok just added 3/4 of a tsp. It did its usual mad mass gas release and my airlock had 2 bubbles per second for a minute. I will see how things look tomorrow.

That "mad gas release" when you added powder to your carboy strongly suggests that there is a great deal of CO2 in the must and that suggests that your fermentation may be ongoing. What is the temperature of the liquid? What is the temperature of the room in which you are fermenting? I wonder if the problem is with your hydrometer reading - if the temperature is too high then the reading will be inaccurate and if the hydrometer was poorly made (the scale is usually paper attached to the inside of a tube - so its position may be out of spec) then all readings will be off. Have you taken a reading using pure water to "calibrate" your hydrometer?

 

[Zule]

Zule,
1. Why do you have an airlock on it?
2. What are the temperatures of the must?

I use juice, so I do not have any must. I always put in airlock on 1-3 days after I put in the yeast (once activity starts) Not sure what the temps are, roiom is about 21c, while the one with the carboy heater was probably about 28c or so.

Not knowing exactly what kind of techniques you used, how much sulfite used before fermentation,etc. makes it tough to know how the ferment ran off the rails. But stuck ferments are almost always due to lack of nutrient management. You MUST provide a high sugar must with correct amounts of nutrient at the times the yeast needs it.

Fermaid K, Go Ferm, etc. is widely available--Morewine carries it as do many other suppliers. Yeast hulls too. Yes, adding the stuck wine a little at a time as you describe is the correct method. Don't forget the nutrient too. But if it dies out on you again, you'll know that the ferment is now kind of dirty with toxins and your only chance is the protocol I stated above.

So for high sugar content is DAP alone good enough or do I always need extra neutrients like yeast hauls or ferma k in these high sugar cases?

That "mad gas release" when you added powder to your carboy strongly suggests that there is a great deal of CO2 in the must and that suggests that your fermentation may be ongoing. What is the temperature of the liquid? What is the temperature of the room in which you are fermenting? I wonder if the problem is with your hydrometer reading - if the temperature is too high then the reading will be inaccurate and if the hydrometer was poorly made (the scale is usually paper attached to the inside of a tube - so its position may be out of spec) then all readings will be off. Have you taken a reading using pure water to "calibrate" your hydrometer?

The mad gas release post was made a week ago when everything was going fine. No real temp readings. Hydrometer is new, the paper inside seems to sit on this 'bulge' and I did test it with water.

 

[beggarsu]

The juice is the "must' - must is what is to be fermented.
..
Your general problem may be the lack of oxygen. Yeast needs air to ferment and space to release the CO2 - airlocks will stress/suffocate them. Most everyone uses just a loose towel or loose lid over the top - mostly to keep out insects.I might do airlock only if the rate was soooo slow I was afraid of oxygenation. So need to keep warm, lots of headspace and use nutrient and maybe of a cup of raisins help the yeast.

Airlock only becomes necessary when the main ferment is done.

Almost all my batches ferment dry to around .990 within 6-7 days. Only a few times I had a problem when the temperature dropped waaaay down at night unbeknownst to me until a few days later - crazy June weather - it took some doing but I ferment to dry those guys as well.

I finally put the Kilju in a carboy when it was around .999 giving up actually - (it had stalled because of temperature drop) but surprise - in the last few days I got it to over 75-80 temp in carboy with airlock it was still gas rising constantly became finally it went bone dry right to .990 or lower (don't trust instrument beyond that) - still it took two weeks to finish that one and I constantly added nutrient (but not when I put it in carboy).