EMERGENCY HELP NEEDED! Must Isn't Fermenting!

[critterhunter]

Being newbies (only our second batch of wine being made) we REALLY need your help here! Using a 7 gallon primary, our first batch of wine was 30 pounds of pears and 6 pounds of white rasins. We had put in about 5 to 7 pounds of sugar water and couldn’t fit in the rest, so about a week later when fermentation slowed down we removed a bit of fruit and poured in the rest of the sugar water to equal 10 pounds of sugar, which made the fermentation start back up again. All was well with that batch.

Now, Saturday we started another batch of pear wine using pears from the same tree but this time they were frozen when we put them in. Also, instead of white rasins this time we put in one and a half gallons of Juicy Juice Raspberry/Apple juice. This stuff says no preservatives on it like sorbate or sulfites. Also, this time we put in the entire 10 pounds of sugar at one time.

The other ingredients are as follows and were the same for the first batch:
2 & ½ teaspoons of acid blend
2 & ½ teaspoons of pectic enzyme
7 crushed campden tablets (1 per gallon, but we only used 3 total with the first batch)

After about 15 hours we put in 7 teaspoons of yeast nutrient (1 per gal, but in the first batch we only used 3 teaspoons total). We then at the same time put in 2 packs of champaign yeast.

The time we put in the yeast nutrient and yeast was about 10AM yesterday morning. Had we waited 24hrs to put those in it should have been done at about 5PM yesterday, so we were a little early on that if that matters.

The bucket sat in the basement until last night at around 6PM and we saw no signs of fermentation from the breather, so we moved it upstairs. The house is at 66 degrees upstairs so it was probably 55 to 58 in the basement. Our first batch of wine had been made in the summer so we thought it was too cold in the basement this time for the yeast to get going.

Well, this morning it still shows no signs of fermentation, and yes we have been stirring it twice a day like our first batch. There is a lid on the bucket with breather like the first batch, but even still since we are stirring it twice a day I don’t see where oxygen would be a problem.

So with the yeast and nutrient put in yesterday morning, us stirring it that night again, and stirring it this morning (for our twice a day routine) the breather still shows no signs of life.

The fruit this time (unlike the first) was frozen and we had put warm to hot water along with the juice in it, so I’m sure it was off to a cold start. Even sitting upstairs all night the bucket feels much cooler than the 66 degrees temperature.

We figure three possible things might be wrong and REALLY need your HELP and advice on this. We just taped a heating pad to the side of the bucket thinking it’s just too cold to start about an hour ago. If it does start up, once it’s going well for say a day do you think we can remove the heating pad?

The second possibility is that the wine is too sweet having put in all ten pounds of sugar this time instead of roughly half of that with the first batch, then the other half on that first batch was about 5 days later when fermentation had slowed way down, at which time fermentation started back up on that wine. Perhaps putting all ten pounds in along with a gallon and a half of Juicy Juice Raspberry/apple juice made the must too rich? We had put in 30 pounds of pears like before so we were only able to put about a gallon to maybe two of water into it. Do you think it’s too rich? If so, how much must juice do you think we should remove and add plain water to it to make things less rich?

The third possibility we can think of would be the champaign yeast. We put in two packs and the expiration date is good on them, and like I said 1 teaspoon of nutrient per gallon instead of a total of 3 we used in the first batch.

Also, and this is very important, just like the first batch we just put the yeast right in and stirred it up. We didn’t start the yeast in warm water or anything. Should we get a couple more packets of yeast, warm that up in a ½ cup of water or something, and put that in?

Another possibility is that we over sulphited it with 7 campden tablets (1 per gallon), where as the first batch we only put a total of 3 in there.

Also, the frozen pears we used this time (they weren’t frozen with the first batch) were a bit more ripe, so I’m sure there was more sugar from them this time combined with the all 10 pounds of sugar and 1 & ½ gallons of the juicy juice which is pretty sweet. And like I said we only were able to put in about a gallon & a half or so of plain water with all that.

One more question: If we do remove some must and replace with water can we pour in say another half gallon of juice in say 4 or 5 days to replace the lost raspberry/apple juice?

We NEED advice here? What should we do? See if the heating pad gets it going? If it does how long should we leave in on there since the house is 66 degrees? Won’t we be able to take it off once it gets going well for say a day? If you think the must is too sweet how much should we replace with plain water? Or, since we didn’t warm up the yeast in water should we buy two more packets and warm that up? Do you think we over sulphited the wine, and if so how much must should we remove and replace with say water?

PLEASE help us save our wine! I figure we got a day or two to figure this out before the fruit starts going bad maybe?

 

[Tom]

Bring the bucket upstairs where its warmer. 55* is WAY TO COLD for the yeast. Also lay the lid on top as you need more O2 in the begining for the yeast

 

[Tom]

BTW, how long was it from adding the camopton to when you added the yeast?

 

[Wade E]

What is the temp of the must? To get yeast going it really should be around 75-80* otherwise most of the time it just wont start or is very slow to the point where you would barely notice it. If the temp is right around there then there must be another problem that we just arent seeing. Adding the yeast too early is a problem but usually not a problem that would stay a problem meaning that not waiting 24 hours for the sulfites to dispearse just makes it take longer to get started but doesnt kill the yeast.

 

[Wade E]

55*!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didnt see that, that right there is your problem!!!!!!!!!!

 

[critterhunter]

We put everything in but the yeast and nutrient at about 4PM Sunday, then we put in the yeast and nutrient at about 8 or 9AM yesterday (Saturday), so it wasn't 24 hours. If you think that is the problem how many packets of champain yeast should I put in (1 or 2?) this time. Should we get the yeast started first and if so how? Put in how much warm water and for how long and should we add a little must to that and if so how much?

Also, even if we are stirring it twice a day you think we should only lightly put the bucket on? We sealed it and used a breather with the first batch and that fermented fine. If we don't seal it then how can we tell if it's fermenting? This Champain yeast doesn't foam hardly at all like other yeasts. We never would have known it was fermenting with our first batch without seeing the breather bubble. Should we leave the lid cracked until things get going well and then seal it? Like said, we are stirring well twice a day.

 

[critterhunter]

Also, if it gets going with the heating pad (how hot is too hot for the must?) after say a day do you think we can remove the heating pad with the upstairs room temperture at about 66 degrees?

 

[JohnT]

Ok, First piece of advise is... Don't Panic.

so, here are my thoughts..

1) 55 is definately too cold!!! ideally you want to shoot for 70f. Turn the heat up!.

2) 7 tablets seems to me to be a bit too much. I would test the PPM of free sulfur (shoot for 20-25ppm). If you do not have a test kit, give the must a splash racking and then quickly sniff it. If you smell sulfites, then you used too much. If this is the case, a couple more splash rackings could take care of it.

3) Since you added your yeast in dry, you have no way of knowing if the yeast was actually any good. Adding dry yeast directly to the wine is not a problem (I have been doing that for 20+ years). Try getting another 2 packets of the yeast, bloom it to make sure that it is ok, then pitch that in.

4) The juicy-juice may be a problem. I know what the label says, but what do they really add to the juice to stabilize it?

5) Give it time. Even 65f will be a rather slow fermentation (not a bad thing).

 

[Tom]

The consensus is bring the temp UP to 70* before doing anything else

 

[Julie]

All of the above posts has given you the best advice you are going to get so I have one comment to make.

Do you have a hydrometer? If so what are your readings and if you do not have a hydrometer, get one.

 

[critterhunter]

Thanks for all the help! Here's what we have done so far. We of course brought the bucket up stairs as said last night. Upstairs it's 66 degrees. About four hours ago it still showed no signs of fermentation so we put a heating pad around the outside of the bucket.

A few hours later we used a temperture probe (the kind you just aim at something about an inch away from it) and checked the temperture of the middle of the bucket on the opposite side of the bucket away from the heating pad and it's reading 67 degrees, so I would guess having the pad on there two hours already the must was probably much colder and is still warming up.

We plan to check the bucket on the oposite side from the heating pad a few times today/tonight and will lower the pad from HIGH to medium if we see the temperature above 75 degrees. If medium puts it above 75 still we'll lower to LOW. I would guess we should be trying to see a temp of 70 to 75 on that oposite side of the bucket? Or, what's the highest it can be and what should we shoot for as best?

We also stirred it of course (twice a day is what we are doing) and also splashed the spoon around in there good/stirred/splashed the surface more/for several minutes as per your other suggestions about the 7 campden tablets perhaps being too much for 7 gallons. I'll splash the surface/stir some more tonight and tomorrow as well and more later if we feel the need to. So you say the 7 tabs wouldn't kill the yeast, it's just that using that much and not waiting the entire 24 hours to put the yeast/nutrient in might have halted the yeast, but it will start when the campden goes away some and/or temp goes up to say 75?

Also, per your suggestions we left the lid on lightly instead of sealing it.

Now more questions: The house is 66 to 67 degrees. If fermentation starts up and gets going well for say half a day can we then remove the heating pad since the yeast has got going? Also, can I then also seal the lid since we are stirring twice a day? Like I said, we sealed the lid on the last batch/stirred twice a day and didn't have any issues. Using champain yeast how can we tell if it's going because the first batch didn't foam much? We saw the breather bubbling on that batch but with no sealed lid? Well, I guess there are small bubbles at the surface when we did the first batch that I would see when opening it to stir?

If this thing doesn't start going by tomorrow and say the temp is around 75 then what? Go get two more packs of champain yeast and put that in some warm water to get going first? If so, how much water, how warm, and do we put anything else in there, and how long to let it sit before putting it in?

PLEASE HELP! I don't want this fruit to go to waste if we can't get fermentation going. How long do you think we have to get it going?

What about it possibly being too sweet if nothing starts in a day or so? Should we take out say a gallon (How much?) of must juice and put plain water in there?

Also, let's say fermentation goes well and it bubbles then stops after about a week like the first batch. Can I then rack it into the carboy and put that in the basement up on a chair or something to it's not on the cold floor, or do we need to keep it upstairs. Since upstairs is 66 or 67 degrees I would guess downstairs is 60 or so maybe. HELP!

 

[Wade E]

If there is no preservatives in there like sorbate or benzoate then it will start with just warming it up and I can 99.99% guaranty you it will start fermenting once the must gets to around 70*. You really need to get ifn you dont have a hydrometer as this will tell you how and if your wine is fermenting. Do not let the temp of this win e go down below 70* until it is done fermenting! Can you ferment at lower temps, yes but you also can encounter many problems doing this and if you are not experienced in making wine I surely dont advise doing this. 7 campden tablets is a little high even though they state 1 tablet per gallon. Basically 3.5 tablets is good for 5-6 gallons so stir it up some more not being gentle to let the S02 escape better.

 

[n2tazmania]

We also keep our house around 67-68*. When starting out a new batch, I sit the primary on a heating pad and put the floating thermometer in. The heating pad will keep it between 75-80*. Once it really goes to fermenting, I cut the heating pad off because the fermentation will keep it between 70-75* where it should be to finish.

 

[wvbrewer]

I have learned alot from this group. Just follow their instructions and it will get going. Warm them beasties up and they will get going.

 

[jdeere5220]

Now more questions: The house is 66 to 67 degrees. If fermentation starts up and gets going well for say half a day can we then remove the heating pad since the yeast has got going? Also, can I then also seal the lid since we are stirring twice a day?

My two cents: Yes, 66-67 degrees is warm enough AFTER the fermentation gets nice and active. The yeast produce some heat of their own, so your must will probably be slightly warmer than that. A cooler ferment means slower, and also changes the end result slightly. The experts say a slow ferment can be a good thing, especially if you are trying to make the final product fruitier with more varietal character.

That said, I would still warm it back up to 75 when you are nearing the end (i.e. the activity is slowing) to insure you ferment to completely dry. That will also help with de-gassing.

There isn't any reason to seal the lid down while the ferment is nice and active, your wine is protected by that blanket of CO2 coming off it. You can even just cover the fermenter with a cheese-cloth. I just set my lid on loose to it's easy to push the grape pack down (I'm making kits, but the concept is the same).

Good luck I'm sure it will turn out fine.

 

[Wade E]

Jdeere, I agree with you as far as cooler ferments but I dont recommend them to newbies. Id say after at least 6 wines youll start having a knowledge of whats expected from yeast. I alwa\ys start with a temp around 77* to get it going good and then end fermentation with a temp around 72* just to make sure it finishes.

 

[Catfish]

The 10 pounds of sugar you added did not hurt anything. Just gonna be sweet and strong


***Oh wait you used champaign yeast. Yeah it's gonna be really strong in the alcohol department.

 

[critterhunter]

Thanks for all the input. I think the temperture was the problem because the only thing we did was put a heating pad on it yesterday morning. Last night there was still no signs of fermentation and the temp was still climbing at about 68 degrees after about 5 hours with the heating pad. This morning we found the breather bubbling madly and the temp was 84 degrees. So we took the heating pad off because it's said to shoot for 70 to 75 for Champain yeast.

If there was no signs of fermentation this morning then we were going to buy another pack of champain yeast and put that in warm water with a little sugar to get it blooming and then dump that in there, but it looks like we don't have to now.

The only other thing we did besides using the heating pad was of course to stir the stuff real well two or three times a day, and I made sure I splashed it around real good too to release any sulphite gas and also to get some good air into the wine. We kept the lid sealed and with a breather on it so I wanted to make sure it was getting good air by doing that.

Now that it was going well this morning bubbling madly we took off the heating pad. I was shocked to see 84 degrees. Since it wasn't that warm or bubbling last night I suspect it started doing that/got that hot some time in the middle of the night. Do you think we hurt anything? Also, do you think so long as it stays at around say 65 degrees or higher that it will be fine without the heating pad now that the yeast is going strong? In other words, what's the lowest temp we should let it get too before that might make the yeast go to sleep?

Also, since the yeast was put in on Sunday morning, that would mean that if it started in the middle of the night last night let's say it's two days before we got fermentation. Do you think we run a high risk of bacteria or bad yeast starting with it waiting that long to get going? After all, we did use 7 campden tablets when we put the fruit/water/sugar/juice in Saturday at around 4PM.

Also, do you think the 84 degrees it got this morning before we took the pad off will hurt anything?

I'm just worried that either it took so long to start (two days) or with the heat that the wine might have bacteria or bad yeast in it? Also worried about how low we should allow the temp to get now without a heating pad?

One more thing...In say a week when the fermentation seems to have stopped do you think it's OK to put the jug we rack it into in the basement so long as we keep it off the floor for any further fermentation it might want to do? In other words, what's the lowest the temp can be for jug secondary fermentation if any of that is going on? I suspect using champain yeast like the last batch it will be done by the time we take it out of the bucket in 7 or 8 days because we never saw signs of that the last time. I think champain yeast goes real fast?

Please try to answer all my questions. Don't mean to be a bother but I'm a newbie and hate to see it go to waste. The air coming out of the breather has a nice sweet smell. No hints of rotten egg or being sour or anything.

THANKS for all the help!

 

[Tom]

relax... have a glass of "something" LOL
It may finish in a few days so ck the gravity. Always go by gravity readings not time.

 

[critterhunter]

Just checked it this morning and am happy to say it's still bubbling nicely (about 2 bubbles per second) and the temp without the heating pad is 74.1 degrees, so I don't think we'll need the heating pad again. But, like suggested, if the temp drops below say 70 and fermentation appears to be done then I'll probably turn on the heating pad and warm it back up again to like 75 to make sure the yeast is really done.

How many days should visible (breather) fermentation be going on with this stuff having used 10 pounds of sugar? What's too short? I could use a time line of when to rack into the carboy from the bucket. And when we rack it into the carboy and place down stairs (55-65 degrees probably) if it's still wanting to do very slow fermentation will the cooler temps hurt things? Meaning, might that make the yeast go dormant when it still has sugar it needs to process, even if we aren't seeing any signs upstairs in the bucket anymore?

Also, when the bucket looks down we plan to taste it to see how much Raspberry flavor is in this Pear wine from the 1 & 1/2 gallons we used. If we want more raspberry flavor in there can we dump another half gallon into the bucket and wait to see if fermentation picks back up?