Early this I started a batch of elderberry.Used a can of Vintners Harvest(96oz)and followed directions.Not having the Vintners brand yeast I subbed Red Star Cotes des Blanc.Two attempts both showed a healthy start but no life signs a day after pitch.I'm thinking high so2.Directions call for 5 campden tab's and then give instructions"dissolve 5 tsp.of sodium or potassium bisulfite in 1 cup warm water.The only so2 tester I have is my nose-smells strong but is getting better.Primary temp 70.Any thoughts?
elderberry no go
- Thread starter danr
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Arne
Senior Member
Get another bucket and splash rack the must back and forth a few times. See if that helps the oder some. Get another pkg. of yeast, hydrate it in a bit of warm sugar water. Once it comes alive, add a cup of your must. Let it grow some, add some more must. Keep this up for a few additions, then add to the batch. Or you can keep adding til you run out of must. Each addition can be bigger than the last one. Good luck with it. Arne.
BernardSmith
Senior Member
Hmmm ... I wonder if that concentration and amount of K-meta is intended to be used as a sanitizer. One campden tablet /gallon is used to kill wild yeasts that may be present and compete with the yeast with which you inoculate the must. Five teaspoons of K-meta is magnitudes more. Check again the instructuions: I wonder if they may suggest that after you make this solution you use only a teaspoon of the solution...
But that said, the most important tool you need is a hydrometer. That will show you any changes in fermentation. As the sugars are fermented the density drops (water has a nominal density of 1.000 - and pure alcohol has an even lower density). My guess is that the elderberry must would have had a starting density of around 1.090 or so... and if you measured the density with an hydrometer you could see if it is dropping or is stable...
If I am correct and you have doused your must in SO2 (the active chemical in K-meta) the best thing to do is whip air into the liquid to help the sulfur dioxide evaporate off. That may be all that you need to do - but I mean whip the snot out of the must. And if you have a sanitized food grade bucket I would use that - loosely covered with a towel. You want all the SO2 to dissipate in the air. (I don't think that at the amount you SHOULD be using to kill wild yeast that you should in fact smell the SO2 - but you may be very sensitive to any amount of SO2... )
I may be wrong... but I would check again those instructions about the quantity of SO2 Vintners is asking you to add to the must 24 hours before you pitch the yeast...
Good luck!
But that said, the most important tool you need is a hydrometer. That will show you any changes in fermentation. As the sugars are fermented the density drops (water has a nominal density of 1.000 - and pure alcohol has an even lower density). My guess is that the elderberry must would have had a starting density of around 1.090 or so... and if you measured the density with an hydrometer you could see if it is dropping or is stable...
If I am correct and you have doused your must in SO2 (the active chemical in K-meta) the best thing to do is whip air into the liquid to help the sulfur dioxide evaporate off. That may be all that you need to do - but I mean whip the snot out of the must. And if you have a sanitized food grade bucket I would use that - loosely covered with a towel. You want all the SO2 to dissipate in the air. (I don't think that at the amount you SHOULD be using to kill wild yeast that you should in fact smell the SO2 - but you may be very sensitive to any amount of SO2... )
I may be wrong... but I would check again those instructions about the quantity of SO2 Vintners is asking you to add to the must 24 hours before you pitch the yeast...
Good luck!
wpt-me
Member
Step (3) add solution of k-meta ( not powder form ) and stir well to make sugar is dissolved.
Recipe calls for 5 campden tablets, crushed or 5 liquid tsp. solution.
Bill
Recipe calls for 5 campden tablets, crushed or 5 liquid tsp. solution.
Bill
OK - went back over directions.Calls for 5 campden tabs crushed or 5 liquid tsp.( see directions in the winemaking process section)I went to process section prepared a cup and added the whole thing.Will time(and splash)overcome?Also-I did prepare the yeastas Arne suggested,taking 5-6 hours making adds.Bernard you nailed sg . thanks to all
BernardSmith
Senior Member
I don't have access to the instructions but I do believe that 1 teaspoon of the SOLUTION you made up is equivalent to 1 campden tablet.. You would then have wanted to add no more than 5 t of the solution and not the entire cup... There was a discussion in this forum about the "confusing" instructions offered by VM about 6 years ago.
BernardSmith
Senior Member
I located the instructions and I gotta say that I think that you may have misread them...
Here is what they say
If you added the entire cup then you added too much K-meta. Presumably the volume they are asking you to make is for sanitizing your vessels and equipment but IMO, the amount of K-meta you need to kill wild yeast is considerably less than you might use to sanitize carboys and hydrometers and the like - in part because for killing yeasts you want the SO2 to linger longer... whereas for sanitizing you want to be able to soak and use with little delay... but VM makes no distinction between the use of K-meta for sanitizing and its use to knock out wild yeast and other bacteria
Here is what they say
To make a sulfite solution dissolve 5 teaspoons of sodium (or
potassium) bisulfite powder into 1 cup (8 ounces) of water. Of this
liquid, you add one liquid teaspoon per gallon of
must (unfermented juice) when directed. Use 1 to 2
teaspoons of liquid solution per gallon of water to
sanitize equipment.
Of course, if you added only 1 t per gallon of must (the wine before you pitch any yeast) then according to VM you should be OK and the problem is not excessive SO2 in the mixture..potassium) bisulfite powder into 1 cup (8 ounces) of water. Of this
liquid, you add one liquid teaspoon per gallon of
must (unfermented juice) when directed. Use 1 to 2
teaspoons of liquid solution per gallon of water to
sanitize equipment.
If you added the entire cup then you added too much K-meta. Presumably the volume they are asking you to make is for sanitizing your vessels and equipment but IMO, the amount of K-meta you need to kill wild yeast is considerably less than you might use to sanitize carboys and hydrometers and the like - in part because for killing yeasts you want the SO2 to linger longer... whereas for sanitizing you want to be able to soak and use with little delay... but VM makes no distinction between the use of K-meta for sanitizing and its use to knock out wild yeast and other bacteria
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No, you are not beating a dead horse. Eventually, it will dissipate. But it will take a significant amount of time. Cannot really guess how long, perhaps a few weeks???
stickman
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I would estimate that adding the entire cup is approximately 650 ppm sulfite for the 5 gallon batch. That's a very high sulfite content. I agree with Sour that it's going to take some time, but truthfully I can't offer much advice as I've never worked with a must higher than 150ppm.
Would heating the must up to almost the boiling point for a short time kill the sulfides and be able to start over?It is what I would try if a batch got a much overdose of pot meta and wouldn't start.Having a problem myself getting a batch of lemon started ,think it may be low PH
Have made many batches of elderberry and blackberry starting with frozen berries and heating to the boiling point to help release the juice when starting and my wines always clear.A lot of Jack Keller's recipes start with pouring boiling water over the fruit.
I aint no brain like these folks but I love elderberry, native to my area, my starts act dead as well, I use a 18v cordless drill and either a 5 gallon joint compound mixer or a 5 gallon paint mixer, I whip it up twice a day into a foamy mess for the first 4 or 5 days then I cut back to whipping it into a foamy mess once a day on 5 an 6 gallon batches I use a 14 gallon fermenter open top food grade barrel also a brute trash can from home depot for bigger batches,, so you can get your must to climb the wall, as the smarter ones on here has told me only during fermenting is oxygen your friend after that except in minute amounts oxygen is no longer your friend, I will plainly state my knowledge is extremely limited. but because of the people on here I enjoy my wine better then I can buy, of Corse I live in a very rural area and my options are limited to almost Boones farm , TJ Swan and Mad Dog 2020. and yes I have not hung myself yet thanks to this site and the open exchange of these giants knowledge. so maybe I'd be better off keeping my mouth shut, but I've been called many things but not knowing whom to listen to, from your replies I see some of the top dawgs are giving you all you'll every need, on elderberry I use a mix of 1118 to start and red pasture added on day 5, this may be stupid but I like the taste test, sadly all my elderberry goes into under the house or into a root cellar, elderberry dose not gain it's prime until it is 10 years old, just my opinion, but as these very people have told me over and over I only need please myself, it took them a little while to make me understand that,
HOUND DAWG
Richard::
HOUND DAWG
Richard::
I aint no brain like these folks but I love elderberry, native to my area, my starts act dead as well, I use a 18v cordless drill and either a 5 gallon joint compound mixer or a 5 gallon paint mixer, I whip it up twice a day into a foamy mess for the first 4 or 5 days then I cut back to whipping it into a foamy mess once a day on 5 an 6 gallon batches I use a 14 gallon fermenter open top food grade barrel also a brute trash can from home depot for bigger batches,, so you can get your must to climb the wall, as the smarter ones on here has told me only during fermenting is oxygen your friend after that except in minute amounts oxygen is no longer your friend, I will plainly state my knowledge is extremely limited. but because of the people on here I enjoy my wine better then I can buy, of Corse I live in a very rural area and my options are limited to almost Boones farm , TJ Swan and Mad Dog 2020. and yes I have not hung myself yet thanks to this site and the open exchange of these giants knowledge. so maybe I'd be better off keeping my mouth shut, but I've been called many things but never not knowing whom to listen to, from your replies I see some of the top dawgs are giving you all you'll every need, on elderberry I use a mix of 1118 to start and red pasture added on day 5, this may be stupid but I like the taste test, sadly all my elderberry goes into under the house or into a root cellar, I pray I live so long,, elderberry dose not gain it's prime until it is 10 years old, just my opinion, but as these very people have told me over and over I only need please myself, it took them a little while to make me understand that,
HOUND DAWG
Richard::
HOUND DAWG
Richard::
Ok then.Looks to me,being 48 tsp in a cup,I overdosed by 9-10X.I'm hoping splash&stir will bring levels down to acceptable by tomorrow(7 days).I'll try another start then.Allways have had good luck with 1118 but it typically finishes with such a high alc I opted for cotes des blanc.Got more cotes des blanc-would have to travel a bit to get 1118 tomorrow,and might not find it in stock.Would someone push me in one direction or other.
thanks to all
thanks to all
Arne
Senior Member
Lemon can be a bit of work to get started. Easiest way I have found is to only use a third to a half of the recomended amount of lemon to get it to go. After it ferments for a few days, add half of what you saved out and then the other half after a couple more days. If you are using straight lemon juice, this probably won't work as all I am doing is diluting it. Works every time on S.P. tho. Good luck with yours, Arne.
