Compliment? I guess so---

[Ernest T Bass]

A friend that I have been giving wine to brought me some wine that he really likes and ask if I could duplicate it. It was Mogan David. I thought about going to the recycle center and night clubs, digging thru the dumpsters to get bottles, scrubbing the grease and krud of them, rinsing them out, soaking them in oxy-clean, scrubbing them with a bottle brush, removing the labels, rinsing them out again and storing them. And, he likes Mogan David better. I just can't seem to get the smell and the taste of the fruit not matter how much fruit I use. My wine is beautiful with the color of the fruit, but only taste of alcohol and sweet (1.020-1.025). How bout some help on getting some flavor? I did check the Mogan David and the pH was 3.6 and the SpGr was 1.056 and it smelled like concord grapes and had a good grape flavor. What'z the answer?
Thanks for any and all help, I've been doing this for about 3 years now and the only wine I have made that you could taste any fruit flavor is elderberry and welch's concord grape concentrate---there's gotta be an answer, any help-please.
Semper Fi

 

[FABulousWines]

At an SG of 1.056 I don't know if I would rather drink it or pour it on my pancakes.

The only thought I would have would be to try to make an f-pack that comes close to the flavor and add that after fermentation. Perhaps an expert will chime in with more details on how to do this as I have never attempted anything like this...

 

[fivebk]

Mogan david probably has a low alcohol content and that could be how you could reduce the alc taste in the wine. 1.056 is really sweet !!! Yours at 1.025 is considerably dryer. Have you tried back-sweetening yours with Welch's 100% concentrate? You should be able to get yours to taste almost like concord grape juice (with a kick).

BOB

 

[Ernest T Bass]

I have 4 gallons clearing now, when I stabalize it I will back sweeten with welchs concord concentrate. The only problem I see, is when I was making the must for this batch, I had a low pH, about 2.6 and had to add potassium bicarbonate to get the pH up to 3.4., if I backsweeten with pure concentrate it may lower my pH again and I read that you shouldn't add potassium bicarbonate after fermentation. It should have settled out enough by this week end to rack, I'll see then what my pH is after I stabilize and
backsweeten. Thanks for all the replys
Semper Fi

 

[garymc]

Did you look at the label of the Mogen David? It's a fortified wine. Juice, artificial flavors, added alcohol. More like a mixed drink for bums. This person you're talking about should stick to Mad Dog or Thunderbird. I would suggest once your muscadines are in full production that you get away from the Welch's and use muscadine juice for backsweetening. Another thing to do is age the wine. That's the best treatment I've found. Real corks and aging.

They used to make Mogen David (or Mad Dog) 20-20. It was 20% alcohol and 20 ounces.

 

[Turock]

Well, for one thing, if you are using POTASSIUM carbonate pre-ferment this may be what's damaging the flavor. Potassium carbonate should only be used for tweaking in the post ferment and never used for moving PH several tenths. Potassium carbonate CAN damage delicate flavors. I'm not sure where you read that you shouldn't use potassium carbonate post ferment---that's the only place to use it, if at all. I dislike the stuff. You should always be adjusting PH pre-ferment with calcium carbonate to raise PH.

In the pre-ferment, you need to use CALCIUM carbonate. I know for sure that you can take a starting PH of 2.8 and move all the way to 3.4 without any chalky flavor. But if you have a very low PH and use only carbonate to bring the PH up to 3.4, you might end up with the chalky flavor.

We make a LOT of fruit wine. Every one of them has huge flavor. So all I can say is that it might be the process you're using. It's hard to evaluate what you're doing by only talking about it on a forum. Essentially, we use all fruit, no water, adjust our brix for a 12 to 12.5 ABV,adjust our PH, use a fruity style culture.

My dad always liked Mogan David. It seems some people really enjoy that deep concord flavor. We've never been able to make a concord wine exactly like it--not that we've TRIED, mind you. But our concord from grapes, with no water dilution is never like Mogan David. It almost seems your friend should mix up some Welch's concentrate and add some vodka to it to get the kick along with the deep concord flavor--THAT might mimic Mogan David.

 

[Turock]

By the way--you can use concentrate to backsweeten without worrying about the PH. We do this sometimes--mostly to add more flavor to our concord in years where we have weather problems and the grapes are not as flavorful. We do it right before we bottle.

 

[wineforfun]

More like a mixed drink for bums.

Among many other wines, my wife likes Mogan David, due to the low alcohol content. I will have to clue her in that i married a bum.

 

[Turock]

Well, wine drinking is all about flavor, in my opinion. I can see why some people like Mogan David. No matter what others say--you should drink what you like.

 

[Bartman]

Well, wine drinking is all about flavor, in my opinion. I can see why some people like Mogan David. No matter what others say--you should drink what you like.

It should be all about flavor, but I have met a number of heavy drinkers that make their own wine, for the sake of having cheap, decent quality alcohol readily available at all times.

But those are also the folks that never seem to have even a half-full cellar...

BTW, Mogen David- can't stand the stuff, but my mother's extended family thought it was a BIG event to open up a jug of it!

 

[TommBomb]

Hey turok, I dont understand, you dont use any water in your fruit wines. The only assumption i can come up with is your using a fruit juice as well to maintain a liquid level in the primary? Can you please elaborate, if you dont mind?

 

[Ernest T Bass]

Thanks to all for the replys: Bob, if I lower the starting pH of the must to 1.075, will that give me more flavor? I should still have enuf alcohol to protect the wine?
Gary: I didn't see the bottle, he brought me about 6 oz's in a fruit jar.
Turock: This is the only site I go to, so I must have mis-read the post, but I have it right now. What does a fruity style culture mean, I think it refers to the type of yeast to use. I normally use 1122,1116,1118 and sometimes use red star premier curvee, which do you recommend I use ? I make mostly fruit wine. I'd like to change the wording on your quote ("you should drink what you like ") to "you should like the wine you drink"
3 years at it and haven't got their yet
Thanks to all

 

[garymc]

My first batch of muscadine had a ph just under the optimal range for fermentation. I brought it up to the bottom of the range with calcium carbonate (before pitching yeast) and after fermentation it was at the top of the range. Apparently fermentation neutralizes some of the acid, so I don't worry so much about the ph now. I think the ph is a problem if the acidity is so bad the yeast can't live. If your muscadines are really, really ripe, they won't be as acid. So quit picking green grapes.

 

[Ernest T Bass]

My muscadines are looking pretty good, lost 4 or 5 this spring. Ison's said it was due to the warm weather and then a freeze. Planted 20 blue berry's this spring and they have berries on em now. Planted 20 black berries this spring also, only one of em has a bloom on it. Planted 20 elderberries this spring also and they are growing like weeds.
Semper Fi

 

[Turock]

Tomm---We never use fruit juice. All we do is freeze the fruit---you can't imagine how much juice that yields. We also use pectic enzyme to break the fruit down, but that is standard for fruit wines.

When fermenting "dry fruits" like apples, it is a good idea to add some good apple juice(100% juice) to the primary, instead of water. On peach, we sometimes use a peach puree added to the primary to bulk up the flavor. Depends how flavorful the peaches are. The only fruit we don't freeze is strawberries--we just run them thru our grape crusher. You make a lot less wine this way--but the flavor just blows you away. The only fruit wine that NEEDS water dilution is red raspberry. Following the standard recipe is much better. A red raspberry made with no water does not deliver the flavor that one might expect. Black rasp is another wine that needs dilution, but we like "cutting" that wine with Niagara instead of making it with water dilution.

Bud---For most of our fruit wines, we use Montrachet. It lends a fruity flavor to the wine, so is real good for fruits or fruity style grapes. It's the culture we also use for concord and Niagara because those grapes are more toward the flavor profile of a fruit. Curvee is a fine culture--works with lots of fruits. Nothing wrong with the other cultures you're using, either. But you might like trying Montrachet--it's one of our favorites. We like evaluating our cultures in order to have them enhance the flavors we're working with. We've tried many cultures, but always come back to Montrachet for non-malic acid fruits. Just be sure to leave lots of room in the vat--at least 20" or so from the top of the must to the rim because it's a BIG foamer and can over-run the vat.

 

[Ernest T Bass]

I'll get montrachet next time I go to town----------Thanks
Semper Fi