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Cold soak using dry ice

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4score

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Avante is a beast for sure, I inoculated Sunday at 2pm at 23.5Brix, I’m down to 5Brix at 6pm Tuesday!! And that’s with frozen ice jugs keeping the temp down.
A wine buddy was using Avante on my recommendation. I believe it was Cab Franc that he was trying to make into a port. When the Brix hit his desired level he added his brandy and the Avante said, "What's this? I'm can climb right over it!". He literally could NOT stop the Avante fermentation train!
 

Ajmassa

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Ending the cold soak today. Monday night to Saturday.

I’ve been opening the box once a day in the afternoon to mix it up and add some more ice. Before mixing bottoms of the pails were always 20° colder than the tops and clumping up. I did end up adding some FT Rouge to the must. A 1/4 dose on thurs. and another 1/4 dose on Friday. And each day removing MOG as I mixed. (By far the most time consuming part of all this) Vast majority of the leaves and little stem pieces pulled throughout the week (and 1 stinkbug), so feeling good about having a super clean must.



Also the ice was gone earlier than anticipated and I wasn’t ready to start— picked up another box of ice Thursday. Almost 5 days soaking now. It’s time. Going to transfer into the fermentor today and let it warm up. I never added any so2. Not sure when yeast should be added tho. Ambient room temp is 66°. So maybe at mid 50’s° inoculate?

By the time this warms up and gets goin, along with the cooler temps here I will easily hit my 10 day ‘crush to press’ target and land closer to 2 weeks I hope.
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Snapping the lids tight Pushed a lot of co2 into must, and upon opening the 1st time had a mini heart attack appearing as if it started fermenting! Lol
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We good though.
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1 casualty was my plastic spoon. Sucker snapped in half. And my scale put on IR. dead battery. Had to break out the old OHAUS balance scale I used to use but kept sorta for decor. EC31EB6C-7D1D-4267-A66A-A813D19CDF24.jpeg
nice and cool. Throwing caution to the wind and fermenting in the basement. I swear to god if I get more fruit flies I will lose my sh*t.
All in all the extended cold soak was pretty fun and I will surely do it again.
 

Ajmassa

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Looking good, Andrew!



Remind me: The scale was salvaged from St. Huberts? Or was it Little Flower? Or elsewhere? (Lots of family members are alumnae of the 2 schools mentioned.)
St Huberts! Great memory! Yeah once I got the digital that balance scale became a decoration. I didn’t wanna get rid of it tho because .....I don’t know. I just liked it. No real reason. I thought it was cool. Maybe for some people in the science/chemistry fields it may not be very cool, but I think it’s a fun throwback. I remember my post about the scale turned into quite a lengthy and interesting discussion.

Still works great!
 

Ajmassa

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Busy Saturday forced me to stretch the cold box another day. Friends stopped by dressed as ‘Guns ‘n Rosé’ for Halloween (which was so awesome btw) and we got to drinkin. Luckily the box held temps great. Last ice addition was Friday afternoon. By Sunday afternoon the buckets ranged from 43° at the surface to low 20’s° at the bottoms.

Transferred over 30gal of must into a 44gal fermentor. 45° as of this morning. Stress free cold soak is over. It’s like the first day of work after coming home from a vacation.
Wasn’t sure when to inoculate, or if I should dose some so2 first to ensure no native yeast takes it. Quick Ph test at crush was 3.56. This morning it read 3.80. Calibrated and checked again. 3.80
Wasn’t expecting that. Calibrated & Checked with my older meter —3.6. Ugh. Why did I do that?!

Checked other wines I know the ph of against my good meter— it read correctly. So I guess 3.8 is correct. Just seems like a big jump from before the cold soak. Would extra cold temps mess with the ph readings?

Then I had to leave for work. I dosed 30ppm so2 because I guess I gotta do a tartaric addition tonight and figured should have some so2 as I tinker since temps will be rising. Not concerned about the ML. Might do sequential inocc anyway. I just hate playing chemist and 2nd guessing my readings.
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cmason1957

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Temperature does affect PH and it can be a Big effect. I found two articles that talk about it:



summary from both:
  • The pH value of a solution is directly dependent on the temperature.
  • A pH value without a temperature value is incoherent.
  • Solution temperature compensation (STC) converts measured pH to the pH at 25°C.
  • pH values taken at the same temperature or converted using solution temperature compensation can be compared to each other.
  • To achieve highest accuracy, calibrate and measure at the same temperature.
 

Ajmassa

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Temperature does affect PH and it can be a Big effect. I found two articles that talk about it:



summary from both:
  • The pH value of a solution is directly dependent on the temperature.
  • A pH value without a temperature value is incoherent.
  • Solution temperature compensation (STC) converts measured pH to the pH at 25°C.
  • pH values taken at the same temperature or converted using solution temperature compensation can be compared to each other.
  • To achieve highest accuracy, calibrate and measure at the same temperature.
Appreciate the quick info. After reading your response I realize my question is actually, “can temps affect ph in spite of auto temp compensation”?
My older meter, the Milwaukee ph55 specifically mentions the built in temperature compensation and I always felt confident of measurements knowing it did that. It shows the temp right on the screen too. It’s a good solid meter. Only strike is one decimal point. And that it’s older with the original electrode. I just naturally assumed the VinMetrica also had that same feature and took it for granted.
Upon looking through the VinMetrica website it doesn’t mention that at all. That’s surprising But I guess makes sense now why I was getting 2 different readings.

anyone able to confirm if the VinMetrica ph meter does in fact lack the auto temperature compensation ? If so, I’m sure I’ll never forget again. Ain’t no better way to commit something to memory than finding out the hard way!
 
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stickman

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The temperature affects both the solution as well as the probe, but the ATC of the probe only compensates for the probe error. So the solution can still vary in pH depending on temperature.
 

Ajmassa

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The temperature affects both the solution as well as the probe, but the ATC of the probe only compensates for the probe error. So the solution can still vary in pH depending on temperature.
Hmmm. Soooooooo... trust nothing? Lol
what’s the move here in this situation to get a legit reading? Warm up a sample in the microwave or something ? To get it closer to room temp?
 

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Hmmm. Soooooooo... trust nothing? Lol
what’s the move here in this situation to get a legit reading? Warm up a sample in the microwave or something ? To get it closer to room temp?
Let it warm up on the counter an hour or so and repeat the reading with your best pH meter and go forward. The perspective is that a lot of wine is made without a pH meter. But scientific winemaking is a good thing, especially with premium grapes like these.

I'd also do a TA titration so you know where you're starting. For instance if TA is 4, then you'd be happy to nudge the pH down even a bit more. If TA is already 7.5, you'd have to think twice about additional acid regardless of pH.
 

Ajmassa

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Let it warm up on the counter an hour or so and repeat the reading with your best pH meter and go forward. The perspective is that a lot of wine is made without a pH meter. But scientific winemaking is a good thing, especially with premium grapes like these.

I'd also do a TA titration so you know where you're starting. For instance if TA is 4, then you'd be happy to nudge the pH down even a bit more. If TA is already 7.5, you'd have to think twice about additional acid regardless of pH.
Oh duh :slp A Small sample on the counter—sometimes ya just get too up close into something to see the most logical solution and takes another set of eyes.👌
Well all signs seem to point to an ideal/safe ph range - but I really haven’t gotten good readings on these grapes yet and I’m about to kick things off. And yeah man, considering the nut I dropped on these grapes— (and the occasional evil eye I get when it comes up in convo 👀) I wanna have confident known levels of ph TA Brix, & so2 before starting and make that sc300 earn it’s paycheck.
Been kicking myself for not getting the YAN test chems considering how cheap it is too. I attempted to finagle lab #’s from the winery I purchased from since I know for a fact they’re also making this Wash cab. Ya know- ‘winemaker to winemaker, can ya help a brotha out?’ kinda thing. No luck tho. Only got a crappy sales pitch. Twice. You’d think I was asking for the nuclear codes based on the responses. They’re now on my sh*tlist.
And you can bet your ass I’ll be looking for Stone & Key Cellar’s 2020 cab once it’s released. I don’t just wanna make a good wine, I want to make it better than theirs!
Subjective Shmubjevtive. It’s game on. (Unfortunately I’m the only one who is aware of this 🤷‍♂️🤣).
And If that means making a batch of frozen petite Verdot over the winter for blending purposes then so be it!
 
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Jay A

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I had same experience with Vinmetrica pH device after a seven day cold soak. Couldn't find any info at their site either. Much to my surprise I didn't see much change in pH from pre soak test, after sample warmed up.
 

Ajmassa

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I had same experience with Vinmetrica pH device after a seven day cold soak. Couldn't find any info at their site either. Much to my surprise I didn't see much change in pH from pre soak test, after sample warmed up.
Lol. That’s funny. We did the same thing in the same manner and dealt with the same issues Probably givin ya deja vu. . Hoping for my own sake that I do see a difference as it warms however.

I woulda paid cold hard cash to see those basketball sized chunks of ice tossed into your vats as everything froze up and you praying the plastic didn’t crack!
 

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