Bad Juice?

[MPRIN42]

Has anyone ever experienced getting bad juice? We are on our third year of making wine. The first year we made a Cabernet, Sangiovese and a Merlot. All three came out acceptable, not perfect but very drinkable. Our next batches were Chilean Cabernet, Pinot Noir and a Malbec. We made all three exactly like the previous except for the fact that we bought a PH tester and Added Camden Tablets in lieu of the Powdered K-Meta. We also finished it off with Potassium Sorbate. I will admit that we bottled the Pinot and The Malbec After 9 months with only a SOSO taste. We thought that it would improve with age. Well 11 months later it tastes Horrible. We never bottled the Cab because it too didnt taste very good. We tried to back sweeten the Cab and added some raisins hoping to clean it up. All helped a little but still doesn't taste very good. The taste seems to be a bit Musty or Sour? The smell is probably the same. This is in all three.
We changed juice suppliers for our next batches and they look and taste much better.
Any Ideas.

 

[Julie]

Well, I would have stuck with the k-meta instead of switching for Campden tablets. And why did you add sorbate, did you backsweeten? The juice is not bad nor is it a problem with the supplier, I really hate to tell you this but I think it is how you are process the must. Can you please post all of your steps and time frame? Plus any testing and hydrometer readings that you took.

 

[Rocky]

Mprin42, just some thoughts and some questions....

- You say you changed juice suppliers. Did you get the same brand of juice from a new supplier or a different brand from new supplier? What brands were they?
- Were any/all of these juice buckets refrigerated?
- What "years" are you referencing?

I have made wine from juice buckets from Italy, California and Chile. I find that the juice "quality" varies from year to year. I have had great Chilean juice and mediocre Chilean juice. Most of my Italian juices were very good and all of my California juices have been good. By "good" I mean made what I feel is a good wine. I believe that what one gets in a juice bucket depends on many factors: the source of the juice, the vintage, the handling by the producer (i.e. the company that harvests and processes the grapes), the handling by the packaging company (i.e. the company that packages the juice in 6 gallon buckets), the handling of the retailer (i.e. the person from whom we buy) and the state of the juice when purchased (e.g. is it fresh or older juice, already fermenting, etc.). My greatest success in making wine from juice buckets has come when I enhance the product with either a grape pack or raisins.

 

[MPRIN42]

Well, I would have stuck with the k-meta instead of switching for Campden tablets. And why did you add sorbate, did you backsweeten? The juice is not bad nor is it a problem with the supplier, I really hate to tell you this but I think it is how you are process the must. Can you please post all of your steps and time frame? Plus any testing and hydrometer readings that you took.

Julie
I added the Yeast approximately 24 hours after putting it in my wine room. It was the Red Star yeast. We then then let it ferment for about 2 weeks until the SV was Below 1.0. We then racked it into our Demijohns and put an air lock on and let it set for approx. 30 days. We racked again and added 7 Camden tablets for 14 gallons. Tested the PH and Added a small amount of Acid reducer to get the PH to 3.6. It sat again for about 3 months and we racked it again and added Camden again. Approximately 3-4 months later we added Potassium Sorbate, waited about a week and bottled. Other than the changes with Camden, acid reduction and Potassium, everything is the same as we have done in the past and it was fine.

 

[joeswine]

A musty odor, sour taste is direct cause of bacteria in the wine, from a few entities one is the sanitation was not up to par, airborne bacteria is constant and though you think you may be sanitized enough it may not be quite enough, that in turn allows bacteria to breed in the wine through the process there is no other reason .

As far as having a bad batch of juice , yes you could have it but it would be on the order being very thin or not having a lot of must in the bottom of the bucket not produce a good tasting wine , but that will be all the wine that we buy in the buckets today they are ready for use and I'm in vast quantities can they be different from year to year most certainly just like seasons are different from year to year depending on the weather climate types or conditions when they were picked , musty odor, sour taste no, I personally don't think that would be allowed on that massive quantity it would discredit the wine industry , I have seen cases where the first use had started to ferment , but usually it sanitation that's the culprit something you missed along the way .

 

[MPRIN42]

Mprin42, just some thoughts and some questions....

- You say you changed juice suppliers. Did you get the same brand of juice from a new supplier or a different brand from new supplier? What brands were they?
- Were any/all of these juice buckets refrigerated?
- What "years" are you referencing?

I have made wine from juice buckets from Italy, California and Chile. I find that the juice "quality" varies from year to year. I have had great Chilean juice and mediocre Chilean juice. Most of my Italian juices were very good and all of my California juices have been good. By "good" I mean made what I feel is a good wine. I believe that what one gets in a juice bucket depends on many factors: the source of the juice, the vintage, the handling by the producer (i.e. the company that harvests and processes the grapes), the handling by the packaging company (i.e. the company that packages the juice in 6 gallon buckets), the handling of the retailer (i.e. the person from whom we buy) and the state of the juice when purchased (e.g. is it fresh or older juice, already fermenting, etc.). My greatest success in making wine from juice buckets has come when I enhance the product with either a grape pack or raisins.

Rocky
I get that adding raisins and grape packs help, and we are actually moving in that direction in the future. The grape juice itself should have adequate flavor in its own right and that has worked in the past and We don't understand how we could have been so wrong on all 3 of these juices.
Also have you added concentrate after the wine was almost complete and if so how did it work out?

 

[MPRIN42]

A musty odor, sour taste is direct cause of bacteria in the wine, from a few entities one is the sanitation was not up to par, airborne bacteria is constant and though you think you may be sanitized enough it may not be quite enough, that in turn allows bacteria to breed in the wine through the process there is no other reason .

As far as having a bad batch of juice , yes you could have it but it would be on the order being very thin or not having a lot of must in the bottom of the bucket not produce a good tasting wine , but that will be all the wine that we buy in the buckets today they are ready for use and I'm in vast quantities can they be different from year to year most certainly just like seasons are different from year to year depending on the weather climate types or conditions when they were picked , musty odor, sour taste no, I personally don't think that would be allowed on that massive quantity it would discredit the wine industry , I have seen cases where the first use had started to ferment , but usually it sanitation that's the culprit something you missed along the way .

Joe
Interesting enough, you and I are from the same neck of the woods. I was born and raised in Newfield, though I now live in Mantua I thought that possibly we could get together and you would be able to see, smell and taste what our problem is.

 

[Julie]

Sounds like you are doing everything right, I would also test for acid besides PH. I have had some good PH and weird acid and some good acid and weird PH so I always like to check both. And there is no reason to add sorbate unless you are planning to backsweeten. The sour taste could be caused by high acid but the musty smell/taste may be cork taint? I'm just saying maybe. What I do know for certain is my juice buckets do not come into their own until 18 months so above everything else you just might need them to age.

 

[MPRIN42]

Joe
Interesting enough, you and I are from the same neck of the woods. I was born and raised in Newfield, though I now live in Mantua I thought that possibly we could get together and you would be able to see, smell and taste what our problem is.

On the other note, this juice was very thin in comparison to what we are now using and the must was not really very heavy.

 

[joeswine]

Tracking the problem

If you have three different wines and they all have the same problem then there has to be something in common with the wines so take a few back step, think first they all came from the same place second they're supposed to be different type/ styles third what is in common with all of them at your level, the surroundings air temperature, in the conditioned space or unconditioned space, the sanitation before insertion, if all were done in buckets and there was no awareness of the problems at the beginning and what transpired in the middle ,first of all wines will take at least one year before the even ready for bottling, bottle shock can do this to ,musty and sour odors or direct derivative of bacteria in the wine, sometimes things happen when were making homemade wine that we don't realize, that are happening until the end, wine is an ever living changing organism until we kill it ,then what is left is what is left !

 

[MPRIN42]

If you have three different wines and they all have the same problem then there has to be something in common with the wines so take a few back step, think first they all came from the same place second they're supposed to be different type/ styles third what is in common with all of them at your level, the surroundings air temperature, in the conditioned space or unconditioned space, the sanitation before insertion, if all were done in buckets and there was no awareness of the problems at the beginning and what transpired in the middle ,first of all wines will take at least one year before the even ready for bottling, bottle shock can do this to ,musty and sour odors or direct derivative of bacteria in the wine, sometimes things happen when were making homemade wine that we don't realize, that are happening until the end, wine is an ever living changing organism until we kill it ,then what is left is what is left !

Joe
I actually did and do think of these things. We thought that we were being more careful this time than the first time. The room is the same, the temperature is fairly consistent between 68 and 70 degrees. The new wine that we started seems to be fine. I don't think that we did anything different. This is just terribly frustrating.