Mosti Mondiale Am I the only one?
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Bottom line.... Do whatever the kit manufacturer recommends.
If making a country wine or one from fresh juice, follow a recipe the first time, be it yours or someone elses you like. Most important, record everything you add and every step you do-dates are helpful also. If it turns out great, you have a shot at duplicating- if not the best, you know what you did so you can tweak it to YOUR liking.
As far as Ascorbic acid,use it to prevent browning in highly oxidizable wines, like apple. Some juices may benefit from it, but try it in small batches the first time to see if it makes a difference.
If making a country wine or one from fresh juice, follow a recipe the first time, be it yours or someone elses you like. Most important, record everything you add and every step you do-dates are helpful also. If it turns out great, you have a shot at duplicating- if not the best, you know what you did so you can tweak it to YOUR liking.
As far as Ascorbic acid,use it to prevent browning in highly oxidizable wines, like apple. Some juices may benefit from it, but try it in small batches the first time to see if it makes a difference.
Sometimes I answer my own questions. I know, it is rather amazing. I subsequently recalled that George had the instructions for the fresh juice posted on the website:
http://www.finevinewines.com/FreshJuice.pdf
The asorbic acid is not added until after MLF is complete. See Steps 8-9.
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http://www.finevinewines.com/FreshJuice.pdf
The asorbic acid is not added until after MLF is complete. See Steps 8-9.
<?
amespace prefix = v ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-com:vml" /></vtroke></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></vlas></vath><?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" vxt="edit"></o:lock></vape></vtroke></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></v></vlas></vath><o:lock aspectratio="t" vxt="edit"></o:lock></vape></v:></vape></v:></vape>I've been doing a bunch of reading. (I swear reading just confuses me more!) Some things I've read say to not use citric acid with a MLF. Several sites say that MLF won't work with high alcohol wines. I have the Amorone coming and the MM site says it's high alcohol. I can't find anything that says what the abv of the finished wine is to know if I can even do a MFL. Does anyone have information that will straighten me out?
<DIV ="Answer">Joan,
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">MLF can be inhibited by several factors, including too low a temperature (keep wine at 68-77 F), alcohol higher than 13%, too high of sulfites, ph above 3.4, and several other parameters. However, these are just potential inhibitors. Cabernet Sauvignon is consistently made with MLF and at abv of 13.5-14.5. I have not made Amarone, but I assume like most reds, it undergoes MLF. I would do what is consistent for that variety of wine. Some wineries propogate an MLF culture (likea yeast starter). I have never had a problem with MLF as long as I kept the temperature in the right range, did not add sulfites until after MLF, and waited several months for MLF to complete. Some also suggest doing MLF in oak barrels or at least while using oak chips/cubes as it seems to help MLF progress. George sells the White Labs MLF culture, which is a test tube vial.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=WLP790
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">After primary fermentation is complete, just pour the test tube in the wine and wait for MLF to complete.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">The wine might induce MLF on its own without an MLF culture, but I would induce to ensure the best chance for MLF to occur.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">White Labs also states that its culture is tolerant of high alcohol and low temperature:
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">"WLP675 has a high tolerance to low pH (3.0), low temperature environments (down to 55˚F or 12˚C), and high alcohol percentages (up to 15% alcohol by volume)."
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">http://www.whitelabs.com/wine/malolactic.htmlEdited by: dfwwino
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">MLF can be inhibited by several factors, including too low a temperature (keep wine at 68-77 F), alcohol higher than 13%, too high of sulfites, ph above 3.4, and several other parameters. However, these are just potential inhibitors. Cabernet Sauvignon is consistently made with MLF and at abv of 13.5-14.5. I have not made Amarone, but I assume like most reds, it undergoes MLF. I would do what is consistent for that variety of wine. Some wineries propogate an MLF culture (likea yeast starter). I have never had a problem with MLF as long as I kept the temperature in the right range, did not add sulfites until after MLF, and waited several months for MLF to complete. Some also suggest doing MLF in oak barrels or at least while using oak chips/cubes as it seems to help MLF progress. George sells the White Labs MLF culture, which is a test tube vial.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=WLP790
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">After primary fermentation is complete, just pour the test tube in the wine and wait for MLF to complete.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">The wine might induce MLF on its own without an MLF culture, but I would induce to ensure the best chance for MLF to occur.
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">White Labs also states that its culture is tolerant of high alcohol and low temperature:
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">"WLP675 has a high tolerance to low pH (3.0), low temperature environments (down to 55˚F or 12˚C), and high alcohol percentages (up to 15% alcohol by volume)."
<DIV ="Answer">
<DIV ="Answer">http://www.whitelabs.com/wine/malolactic.htmlEdited by: dfwwino
PeterZ
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Ascorbic acid is an antioxidant, but not nearly as strong as SO2. When problems cropped up in salad bars using sulfite solutions to prevent browning, everyone switched to ascorbic acid. It's not strong enough to inhibit yeast fermentation, but it aparently inhibit MLF.
Microorganisms are as varied as animals, and there are probably more species of microorganisms than there are animals. Even in the bacterial world there are bacteria that live near the volcanic vents on the ocean floor at temperatures of 500F or more, others that can survive total vacuum and lack of moisture for decades, some that cannot live in the presence of oxygen, some that secrete sulfuric acid as a byproduct and thrive at a pH of <1, others that ... well, you get the idea.
It is a mistake, however, to think that all bacteria within a single species or sub-type are identical. All humans are of the species Homo sapiens, but some of us are tall, some short, some strong, some ... well you get the idea.
The net result is that, using bacterial genocide, you can select strains of a bacterial species with stronger tolerances. If you take wild MLF bacteria, plate it out to select single cell colonies (standard culturing techniques for a century) and then grow it in an environment of pH 3.0, some of the cells will survive. You select those cells and grow your culture. Then you grow that culture on a medium with 15% abv, and some of them will survive. Then you grow the survivors at 55F, and the ones that grow now constitute a strain that tolerates pH as low as 3.0, alcohol as high as 15%, and temps as low as 55. In escence you have systematically killed off all of the strains that cannot tolerate these conditions.
Now, if you put this strain back into a more favorable environment with the original culture you may find that the bacteria that couldn't handle the extremes can out- compete the specialized strain. The whole ecological dynamic is facinating to me.
Microorganisms are as varied as animals, and there are probably more species of microorganisms than there are animals. Even in the bacterial world there are bacteria that live near the volcanic vents on the ocean floor at temperatures of 500F or more, others that can survive total vacuum and lack of moisture for decades, some that cannot live in the presence of oxygen, some that secrete sulfuric acid as a byproduct and thrive at a pH of <1, others that ... well, you get the idea.
It is a mistake, however, to think that all bacteria within a single species or sub-type are identical. All humans are of the species Homo sapiens, but some of us are tall, some short, some strong, some ... well you get the idea.
The net result is that, using bacterial genocide, you can select strains of a bacterial species with stronger tolerances. If you take wild MLF bacteria, plate it out to select single cell colonies (standard culturing techniques for a century) and then grow it in an environment of pH 3.0, some of the cells will survive. You select those cells and grow your culture. Then you grow that culture on a medium with 15% abv, and some of them will survive. Then you grow the survivors at 55F, and the ones that grow now constitute a strain that tolerates pH as low as 3.0, alcohol as high as 15%, and temps as low as 55. In escence you have systematically killed off all of the strains that cannot tolerate these conditions.
Now, if you put this strain back into a more favorable environment with the original culture you may find that the bacteria that couldn't handle the extremes can out- compete the specialized strain. The whole ecological dynamic is facinating to me.
PolishWineP
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Often times we use bentonite to clear muddy waters...
geocorn
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The fresh juice is scheduled to be delivered on Friday. We will take the ones to be shippeddown to Ice House that day. On Monday, we will pick up for to bring back to the store to see how long they take to thaw. If they hold for four days, no worries; otherwise, we have a big oops for the 4 day shipping customers. We should be fine, but I want to know for sure before I ship.
As pointed out, no adjustments are needed. For my Chilean juices from April, all I did was add some super kleer and SO2 at the end. You will be very pleased with the wine which will make next year more difficult in only choosing 1 or 2.
As pointed out, no adjustments are needed. For my Chilean juices from April, all I did was add some super kleer and SO2 at the end. You will be very pleased with the wine which will make next year more difficult in only choosing 1 or 2.
I don't believe George did a MLF on his batches and here is the link to the thread that was started. It gives progress and info from Mosti on doing an MLF. I know this contradicts the info on the website but some of the MM instructions need some work and updating!
I will adda reminder: plan on transferring allbuckets of juice to a larger fermenter as they are packed in a 6 gallon (not 6.5 gallon) bucket with less than an inch of head space.
http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3389&PN=1Edited by: masta
I will adda reminder: plan on transferring allbuckets of juice to a larger fermenter as they are packed in a 6 gallon (not 6.5 gallon) bucket with less than an inch of head space.
http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3389&PN=1Edited by: masta
PeterZ
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I'll bet those pails are a lot easier to deal with than the MM All Juice kits. Inside the pail is a bag with 23 L of juice in it. It is a two person operation to transfer it to a primary. One person pulls up on the neck of the bag (hard) while the other decaps and starts the rack with just the tip of the autosiphon in the bag. It's the only way to avoid spilling juice. I imagine that the Meglioli kits are much the same.
With the frozen in pails without a bag, just wait until it melts and rack.
With the frozen in pails without a bag, just wait until it melts and rack.
Yes, it it is a simple one-man operation. I picked up my Cabernet Sauvignon and Moscato fresh juice pails today at 6 pm from George. I was unable to get them yesterday because I did not get his email notifying us about the early arrival until late last night. I just racked the fresh juices to my 7.9 gallon fermenters. I left the autosiphon in the pail and returned after the siphon had run out of juice. I then removed the auto siphon, took the juice remaining in the pail and swirled the pail to mix the yeast and sediment into the remaining juice, tilted the bucket into my fermenter and the job was done. My Moscato had an SG of 1.082 at 68 degrees F. My Cabernet Sauvignon had an SG of 1.086 at 68 degrees F. The fermentation had already begun when I picked the juice up from George, therefore the original SG may have been slightly higher for each. The Cab had a nice red foamy head. George had loosened the screw cap airlock on each pail to allow gas to escape andsome juice had leaked out when I picked them up. George started to wipe it up for me, but I told him not to do so. Instead, I took the lids and poured the juice into a wine glass to taste the must. Both are very consistent with fresh grape musts I have tasted before of C.S. and Muscat. Therefore, I definitely expect the distinct varietal flavors to shine through after fermentation. One word, YUMMY. Edited by: dfwwino
Here are my thoughts on MLF. First, I have made multiple batches of Cabernet Sauvignon with fresh grapes from California, both with and without doing MLF. In the absence of MLF, there was always a noticeable acidic bite on the finish. The wine was not nearly as smooth and velvety. Therefore, I have performed MLF on my Cabs for several years when using fresh grapes. Masta's link with the information from MM does not explain why MMs 's fresh juice would have less than normal malic acid in MM's fresh CS juice from California. I think kit manufacturers try to keep it simple and avoid additional expense. And it is definitely not necessary to do MLF to make a good tasting Cab. But the issue is whether the wine will benefit from MLF. I think that Cab. Sauv. tastes much better with MLF. Sometimes the rough edge on a red wine is the bite of malic and the absenceof smoother lactic acid. Such a bite may be appropriate for Italian reds, but it is not consistent with Cal. Cabs.A vial of MLF culture costs only $7.99, a minimal loss even if MLF does not occur or does not produce much benefit. But like so much else in winemaking, it is a matter of personal taste. If the varietal and style you are making most often undergoes MLF, you might want to do what is consistent with that varietal and style. Edited by: dfwwino
The fermentation is going gangbusters. I know fermentation is going well when my stepdaugther begins complaining about the stench. Ahhhh, the sweet smell of fermentation. She's telling me to move it outside. I told her start paying rent.
