Mosti Mondiale All Juice MM Amarone help

[BillK]

Hello,
 
Newbie to the forum.
I have never used Mosti before so I have several questions for you all. 
Firstly I noticed in other threads that the All Juice Amarone used to come with raisins.  I didn't see any in the kit.  Would you recommend adding them?  How much and what kind?
 
What is the deal with not sealing the lid to the primary for the first few days??  I used to make beer and I kept air off the brew as much as possible.  Same thing with other kits I have done.
 
Lastly I think I might try to age this batch in the secondary for 4 to 6 months  Any tips there?  Take it all off the lees first then back into the secondary correct?
 
I know there is a lot here but I appreciate any help.
 
Thanks
BillK

 

[Tom]

Hello,
 
Newbie to the forum.
I have never used Mosti before so I have several questions for you all. 
Firstly I noticed in other threads that the All Juice Amarone used to come with raisins.  I didn't see any in the kit.  Would you recommend adding them?  How much and what kind?
 
What is the deal with not sealing the lid to the primary for the first few days??  I used to make beer and I kept air off the brew as much as possible.  Same thing with other kits I have done.
 
Lastly I think I might try to age this batch in the secondary for 4 to 6 months  Any tips there?  Take it all off the lees first then back into the secondary correct?
 
I know there is a lot here but I appreciate any help.
 
Thanks
BillK

Yes I would add raisins 1-2#'s
 
Reason not sealling the lid is that the yeasties LOVE oxygen to multiply. When it gets 1.020 you can remove the raisins and snap the lid w/ airlock. Some will rack off to the secondary @ 1.010 and let it finish in the secondary. When dry add the stabilizers. Wait a month and rack leaving the sediment behind.
 
I would not age in the secondary
 
This Amarone will be better if you bulk age it for 12 months

 

[ibglowin]

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the FVW Forums!

I made the MM AJ Amarone about a year ago and it did come with a raisin pack. It may have been accidentally omitted. Contact where you purchased to see if this is indeed the case. If somehow they have stopped adding a raisin pack to this kit (hard to believe since its the raisins that make a good amarone) you can add them like Tepe said. Make sure you find ones that are not covered in oil or drenched in sulfite (preservative). I have used Organic Flame Red raisins from Whole Foods (or any good organic grocery store). These were not treated with oil or preservatives and worked really well.

Add them into the primary either in a cheesecloth bag or loose. The bag makes it easier to extract when your done with them.

Ferment this kit to dry in the primary. Add the yeast energizer in the primary at ~ 1.030 SG. Don't transfer to secondary or you will get a wine volcano.

Snap the lid and put an airlock on after it settles down (after you have added the energizer)

You can transfer (quick and dirty) to the secondary (glass carboy) after ~ 7 days if the SG is ~1.000.

Let in finish out there for another 12 days or so then you can rack, degas , add sulfites and fine etc.

I think Tepe meant don't bulk age in "primary". Most all of us bulk age in the secondary (carboy) with an airlock. 1/4 tsp of Sulfite (K-Meta) is then added every 3 months to replenish the sulfites and keep your wine protected until you bottle.

Once again welcome!

 

[tonyt]

Bill, welcome.
Do exactly whatever Mike says, he's the best. Well . . . him and Wade, and Waldo, Tepe, Rick, Richard and Dan. and about 250 others. Oh and that's not even to mention George! If all else fails call George.

 

[BillK]

I called the Mosti 1-800 number. Spoke to customer service. They said they changed the kits in the past year and they no longer come with the raisins.
I think I will search for some good organic ones anyway and add. Have never used them before and from what i have read it can't really hurt as long as I don't over do it .


Thanks for all of the great info.

 

[BillK]

Ok Raisins are in after searching high and low for some decent organic flames.


Question for you is when to add oak and when to pull raisins. Assuming I pull raisins when I transfer to Primary at about 1.000.


Thanks

 

[ibglowin]

Raisins are added ASAP so the yeast can start crunching on them. Make sure to punch them down 2-3 times a day and try and squeeze them with the back of your spoon or something. Oak can be added now as well!

 

[Tom]

I agree with adding raisins now.
I however dont think the oak will do much good since it not in the primary very long.
I add my oak (2cups med toast) after the wine goes dry in the secondary or after you rack from secondary. I usually leave the oak in at least 1-2 months The secondary or right after is a good time to add MLF coulture BEFORE meta

 

[PPBart]

I agree with adding raisins now.
I however dont think the oak will do much good since it not in the primary very long.
I add my oak (2cups med toast) after the wine goes dry in the secondary or after you rack from secondary. I usually leave the oak in at least 1-2 months The secondary or right after is a good time to add MLF coulture BEFORE meta

When you add oak to the carboy, do you just drop the cubes (or spirals, chips, etc) into the wine? I assume it will eventually soak up enough wine to sink(?) Or pehaps do you put the oak into a weighted mesh bag?


I'm going to add oak cubes to my muscadine port soon -- never done that before, so I'mlooking for info...

 

[ibglowin]

Cubes or "beans" are usually just dropped in and then taken out when they have reached the level of oaking you like (usually during a racking). They will drop to the floor of the carboy within a month or two. Chips will impart their flavor faster and drop usually within a few weeks at best.

Spirals take longer and most people tie some fishing line around them so they can be retrieved easily. Make sure they fit through the mouth of the carboy as they swell a bit so if its a tight fit when dry you may not be able to get them out once they swell and you will have to basically crack it in half or break it up in order to get it out.

 

[Tom]

I agree with adding raisins now.
I however dont think the oak will do much good since it not in the primary very long.
I add my oak (2cups med toast) after the wine goes dry in the secondary or after you rack from secondary. I usually leave the oak in at least 1-2 months The secondary or right after is a good time to add MLF coulture BEFORE meta

When you add oak to the carboy, do you just drop the cubes (or spirals, chips, etc) into the wine? I assume it will eventually soak up enough wine to sink(?) Or pehaps do you put the oak into a weighted mesh bag?


I'm going to add oak cubes to my muscadine port soon -- never done that before, so I'mlooking for info...

Like said just drop them in sooner or later they will drop. Now cubed take longer so you need to leave them in longer. I use chips.

 

[BillK]

Have the wine in the carboy where it is gonna sit for a little bit. Until I start another batch. Tasted a small sample and I am pleased with what I have. Not as much body as I was expecting from adding the raisins but very nice. Thinking I might add some more Oak as there is not much of a presence right now. I have half the bag that came in the kit in there right now. The other half was put in after first racking.

 

[ibglowin]

This kit takes 18 months to really develop so its going to be awhile!

I would only add the oak that came with this kit. This wine is not known for being real oaky so be careful if you add any more.

When you racked off the fines and gross lees what did you top off with?

 

[BillK]

I topped off with another Amarone. Found a relatively cheap one. Was gonna use a Valpo if I couldn't find a reasonable one.


Have you had bad experiences using something else?

 

[ibglowin]

No, just making sure you didn't top off with water. That would tend to make it taste thin. I used a cheap Amarone from Trader Joe's on mine.

 

[BillK]

Ok Mike and the others in the know,

I was planning on bulk aging this wine for a little bit.1 week ago I degassed, put all of the finings in & Meta. Should I even bother bulk aging it now? I have read, after the fact, that it is recommended to age w/o the finings and Meta. I don't think it will hurt anything but will I gain anything at this point?


Thanks again for your help. It is much appreciated

 

[ibglowin]

I always degas (warm temp 72-74) with vacuum, add the K-Meta, stir, add fining agents, stir. Then let it bulk age for 6-8 months. It doesn't hurt at all to let it sit on the fines. Just make sure your topped up good and keep an eye on your sulfite levels or add a 1/4 tsp every 90 days. A week or so before your ready to bottle rack off the fines. Let it sit for a few days to let any residual (really fine) fines settle back to the bottom. Then filter (optional but I always do) and bottle.

Bulk aging is nice as all your eggs (or wine in this case) is in a really nice environment for aging where (especially in deep Winter or Summer) the temp swings will be moderated by the bulk mass of the wine. Once your in a bottle you have 30 little experiments going on all at the same time and some will age differently than others due to warm areas of the room or differences in light intensity falling on some of the bottles.

Bulk aging is the best thing you can due for your wine if you want it to turn out well. You would be tempted to open a bottle too early and then you will be disappointed (we have all done this). Its amazing what just 3-6 months can do for these wines as far as maturity.

Remenber these All Juice kits are the slowest to mature as a class of kit wines. Some are a little better than others at only 12 months but most of them really need 18-24 months to peak. Patience is a virtue in this hobby.

Like that silly commercial, "Set it, and forget it!" Well almost forget it anyway!

 

[v1rotate]

Just make sure your topped up good and keep an eye on your sulfite levels or add a 1/4 tsp every 90 days.

I've been curious about this, Mike. Have you come to any conclusions yet about how good a benchmark the "1/4 tsp every 90 days" is? It sounds like you will be checking your sulfite levels every 3 months to determine a more appropriate amount of KM to add. I hope you will post those conclusions.

At one point I was under the impression that the 1/4 tsp addition was to replenish the free SO2 after racking, ie someone racks every 90 days and therefore needs to add the extra KM. Now I'm not so sure and I think you will be developing this info.

Thx!

 

[ibglowin]

If you aren't measuring or have no way to measure your sulfites thats a good "safe" dosage. If you have an airlock in place then your wine can in effect "breath" so its using up some of the available free sulfite. I am planning on doing an A/O free sulfite test from now on and will report back on levels and trends that I am seeing.

My Chilean Pinot Noir did not need an extra dose at 8 months. It had the initial dose when fining and a 90 day top up dose and that was it. It still had 48 ppm free which was way good enough for a wine with a 3.2 pH. According to the charts as pH goes down the need for sulfites goes down with it. So you really need to check your pH, look at the chart for reds or whites and then determine what the appropriate level is for that type of wine and then adjust accordingly at bottling time.