Aging Question

[Johnd]

@Scooter68 Some of the best wines I’ve ever had were full of sediment. 25 year old Bordeaux, 40 year old Borollo, etc. many reserve Brunellos (which age for legal min 6). There’s nothing implicitly wrong with sediment in a bottle, nor will aging alone ensure all sediment drops.

Sediment in these old bottles of wine is definitely not frowned upon, some consider it a sign of a quality wine. When drinking old wines like that, I stand them up for a day or two before gently uncorking and don’t even pour the last inch or so into the decanter. I think that the sedimentation that we try to avoid as winemakers, is that which is leftover from fermentation and develops very early in the maturation process, at least for me, that’s what I’m trying to eliminate......

 

[Jose' Miller]

Great stuff!! Keep the advise coming....

 

[Ajmassa]

I usually find sediment in the pricier cabs I have.
So it’s not just the sediment idea. Simply put, I try to mimic the commercial process as much as possible. So “aged 2 yrs in 40% new barrels” = 1yr+ with oak alternatives in glass. And just let em age while procrastinating to bottle. Probably isn’t a big deal once it’s past a certain point though.
I have finally been able to let them age in the bottle for the 1st time and not give out until ready. It’s tough when EVERYONE is asking for some. usually Christmas Time is when I’ll dish it out 1yr old wine-but haven’t given out any red in 2 yrs. hope they all are pleasantly surprised this x-mas

 

[Doug’s wines]

I’ve been striving to accomplish that higher quality reserve type outcome and here’s what my research has seemed to uncover. Dead yeast cells from fermentation are earliest things to settle. They add flavor and leaving in longer is often done (called Sur Lie aging, however they are usually mostly removed before final bottling. If you are doing a kit, this is about the only way to improve mouthfeel as mlf is off the table.

In older bottles, the sediment is usually crystals of tartrates. Red wines also produce pigmented tannins, a result of phenolic polymerization. For Wines intended to age for years, wine makers deliberately leave tartrates and phenolics in the wine to produces unique bouquet and flavors in the older wine.

After a 3 month rack I am considering beginning to rack any remaining sediment with the wine unless it’s in large quantities and looks like a failed clearing. An advantage of bulk is extended time on the fine lees. Then right before bottling I will do a final polish rack then bottle.

 

[mainshipfred]

My understanding of Sur Lie aging is the lees have to be stirred weekly or some interval to keep them suspended. I don't believe letting them sit on the bottom for extended peroids of time has the same outcome.

 

[Doug’s wines]

Yes sur lie involves stirring to achieve best outcome. That said the flavor impact comes from wine contact with the lees, so that contact suspended or on the bottom is only changing the amount of surface area and affecting the gross impact not the fact that flavor is being imparted correct? Also stirring ensures that balance is achieved with the flavoring by distributing the effect.

One more thing, personally I don’t filter reds. Whites are a different story as they are made to drink young and any remaining proteins will degrade them faster so if I’m going to share them sometimes it makes sense to filter. I just don’t think there’s any benefit to filtering reds and they usually lose too much color and taste a little “less” to me when they’ve been filtered. I know some people who filter everything, that’s just not my current way of doing things.

Variety is a big part of winemaking and why there are so many variants and labels. Everyone does things differently. For that matter I do things differently almost every batch! I’m still refining my process.

 

[Ajmassa]

With battonage it would certainly help impart anything from lees. But really it’s the winemakers discretion to stir
As a sloppy racker I’ll have a thin layer sometimes all the way through and I’m ok with that. I don’t stir it but I do tell myself it helps- and don’t really strive to have the bottom crystal clear until bottling (or just sure not to suck it up at bottling). I don’t filter either.
I figure this isn’t a big concern for commercial since the wines in tanks and barrels.

 

[mainshipfred]

I also don't filter reds very often and when I do it's with a 5 micon filter. I learned recently light refracts off the sediment in wine and the less sediment the deeper the color. Again, as you said everyone does things differently.

 

[Scooter68]

Sediment type varies. It's not that all sediment is bad but rather that a few months invested in bulk aging costs nothing. Commercial wine or home-made wine, sediment detracts from a wines appearance. Right or wrong, take a wine with sediment in it to a wine competition and I doubt your marks will be all that great. Point is bulk aging of a year is consistent with best practices. Less than that is rushing things.
No guarantees are available in wine making but just bottling to get it over with is pointless. Aging in bulk can't do any harm, but bottling too early can lead to numerous problems. We are not talking about people with real winery experience here, we are talking about home wine makers, hobbyists who can and do make mistakes - so why push it.
Take your time and let it age in bulk.

Note: Have you ever heard anyone say, I let it age in bulk too long? Haven't seen that comment on here yet.

 

[GaDawg]

I have never filtered any wine, but I have been told that filtering is not to clear wine but to polish wine.

 

[mainshipfred]

I believe you are correct. Wine should be for the most part clear if you choose to filter it.

 

[JamesGrape]

So does anybody here stir the lees during bulk aging?

My first three batches are just into bulk aging less than a month ago. They are clear enough now to see the fine lees on the bottom.

It wouldnt be any trouble to stir the carboys and cap them with headspace eliminators. Esthetically it seems like a backward step - I wait for the wine to clear and get pretty - then I muss it up and make it cloudy again. But I would do it if there is a benefit.

The batches are a kit Shiraz, a tweaked kit Chardonnay, and a standard Dragon Blood. The DB still shows some suspended fine lees drifting a few inches above the bottom.

 

[Scooter68]

Other than wines aging Sur Lie, once fermentation is over the sooner you get rid all the lees the better. Stirring the fine lees up in your wine at this point is counter-productive.

 

[joeswine]

I don't know,there is something to be said about both ways, bulk aging has it's points for refs only and remember a cask only gives off it's enhsnenhance for 5 years and it's done.Organic wines are never filtered and state on the label there might be sediment on the bottom.do where does that leave the home wine maker? If you do kits mostly like I do follow the instructions . I always bottle and let it set that's not to say that on some whites I don't have fall out even with filtering .The upside is after a couple of months after the bottle shock ,I can taste and even a year or two down the line it's more than ready for drinking or competition, for the home wine maker its about readyness and taste kits were developed for the short term ,2 to 3 years then they start to peak, cheaper kits faster life cycle.just my thoughts it can also apply to fresh juice or grapes,its iall about the Base wine's structure.TRY NOT TO OVER THINK IT

 

[JamesGrape]

Thanks Scooter.

I was getting bored and feeling like I was neglecting my wine just checking it for clearing once a week. I thought I might rack off the lees just to feel like i was accomplishing something.

I have researched quite a bit and this was pretty good info about sur lie and battonage:

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/surlie/surlie.htm

It’s tempting me, but I think I will wait until I learn more about it and make my own wine from grapes (soon), and use a selected yeast. (Kit EC118 might not offer as much as others). Then I might split into two identical batches and battonage one batch to see if it makes any noticeable difference. It might take two years to find out, lol - but what the heck - it doesn’t cost anything but a little of my time.

My initial take is to think if battonage was “all that” - there would likely be aging vessels made for sale with built-in, automated stirrers that could be set to the winemakers preferred schedule. And I have not seen any.

 

[joeswine]

Battonage is more for chardeny style wine than anyother.

 

[Scooter68]

There is but One rule in wine making - there are very few absolutes.

 

[JamesGrape]

I racked three carboys off fine lees today. Moving the carboys caused some fine sediment to drift around in the wine. Annoying, but I’ll think of that as a bonus battonage .

 

[Trick]

Simple rule is that if you want to drink early, follow kit instruction royally and bottle asap. If you are patient enough, forget about the instructed timeline and throw out unnecessary additives and leave it in carboy as long as you can. The downside is you need a lot of carboys and space. My production bottleneck is carboy volume.

I am in the latter camp. I don't add fining agent until bulk aging is finished. My bulk aging period is usually 0.5 yr ~ 1+ yr depending on how expensive the kit is and the variety. I think the small suspended solids or the solids in colloid size in wine help developing flavours. Early fining prematurely remove the good stuff and can result in flabby flavour.

Before bulk aging is done, it is hard to tell how the wine will taste like and there is still some room to adjust the flavour such as oaking or flavouring.

I did sur-lie aging once in half cheap Chardonnay kit and it is still in clarification phase, a quick taste recently was very satisfying. It is worth the effort and for sure I will do that again.

 

[BigMac]

Hello Jose.
When making wine from juice or grapes, my advice is to bottle when the wine tastes good.
Over many years I have experimented with the concept that "it will get better with time". NOT. You are just wasting corks.

I rack about a week after fermentation is over, then 2 weeks, then a month, then every 3 months till I bottle.
I bottle when it tastes good and there is just a skim of sediment on the bottom of the carboy.
I use oak cubes and add them after my second racking.

Racking pulls off CO2.
You can check your bottle of wine for CO2 by pouring a glass of wine.
Then put your thumb on the top of the bottle and shake the bottle.
If your wine has CO2 it will have a lot of bubbles.
Then you know you should have racked a few more times before you bottle.

I use oak cubes to add flavor, glycerin to add a bit of body (remember to add Sorbate when you do this)

If your wine needs help play with a teaspoon of vanilla maybe! Organic blueberry juice is a great ingredient to add some flavor.

Ya Ya, purests schmurists, if you end up with some Chilean that is not working out, be creative.

Good luck!

Cheers