WineXpert When to Tweak High End Kits

[Vinodawg]

New to the forum (1st post) and a little over a year making kit wine. I'm on batch nbrs 12 and 13 now, both WE LE kits. I have a WE Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz on order and hope to start next weekend. Man, this is fun.

I never heard of kit wines until I ran across a winemaking class when looking for a Christmas gift for my wife and I. I got hooked right away. I've told a few friends what I'm doing and get alot of strange looks.

So, far I've stayed with the kit directions and focused on high end kits (RJS En Primeur, Cellar Classics and WE Eclipse). My theory is that the higher end kits would result in wine that we like ourselves and would like to share with others - Big Reds and Chardonnay.

I have a Cellar Classics Super Tuscan and En Primeur Spanish Cab in the bottle about a year (1st two). I tasted both after about 10 months and the Super Tuscan was developing nicely. The Spanish Cab was fruit forward and definitely needs more time. I've read on the forum that this kit may take 2 years to develop.

This forum is great at providing info from much more experienced wine makers. I plan to start bulk aging the big reds going forward.

I'm finally getting to the question - when to move from kit directions to tweaking? It will be at least another 6-12 months before the stuff I've made has been in the bottle long enough to determine if it is "good enough" and meets my goal above or if I should start tweaking as other are doing in this forum. By that time, i'll likely have 600 bottles in the wine racks at the rate i'm going.

Should I start tweaking now? Any suggestions for the Shiraz?

 

[jgmann67]

Good theory... It's mine too. But it takes time to see if that theory pays any dividends. It is for me.

With the higher end kits, I think the tweaks are at the edges... With changes in yeast, oak and added tannins to suit your tastes.

 

[Mismost]

Can't answer your question because I went the other way...started low end...tweaking low end kits and getting wine on the racks for drinking NOW before I jump into the high end kits. Have been picking up equipment and now have "enough carboys" (i keep hearing you never have enough)to let the big kits sit a long time.

Did Cellar Classic Chardonnay and added the zest of a grapefruit....it did add a zing, but you don't really taste GRAPEFRUIT ...doesn't scream at you. My only high end kit.

 

[Brian55]

New to the forum (1st post) and a little over a year making kit wine. I'm on batch nbrs 12 and 13 now, both WE LE kits. I have a WE Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz on order and hope to start next weekend. Man, this is fun.

I never heard of kit wines until I ran across a winemaking class when looking for a Christmas gift for my wife and I. I got hooked right away. I've told a few friends what I'm doing and get alot of strange looks.

So, far I've stayed with the kit directions and focused on high end kits (RJS En Primeur, Cellar Classics and WE Eclipse). My theory is that the higher end kits would result in wine that we like ourselves and would like to share with others - Big Reds and Chardonnay.

I have a Cellar Classics Super Tuscan and En Primeur Spanish Cab in the bottle about a year (1st two). I tasted both after about 10 months and the Super Tuscan was developing nicely. The Spanish Cab was fruit forward and definitely needs more time. I've read on the forum that this kit may take 2 years to develop.

This forum is great at providing info from much more experienced wine makers. I plan to start bulk aging the big reds going forward.

I'm finally getting to the question - when to move from kit directions to tweaking? It will be at least another 6-12 months before the stuff I've made has been in the bottle long enough to determine if it is "good enough" and meets my goal above or if I should start tweaking as other are doing in this forum. By that time, i'll likely have 600 bottles in the wine racks at the rate i'm going.

Should I start tweaking now? Any suggestions for the Shiraz?

The high end kits typically don't need tweaking to be good. So my advice would be to reserve the tweaking for kits that are clearly lacking, or for when you're completely confident that what you're doing is actually improving the end result..
FWIW. I don't really consider extended schedules and/or bulk aging as actual tweaks, as this obviously benefits any level of kit..

 

[heatherd]

New to the forum (1st post) and a little over a year making kit wine. I'm on batch nbrs 12 and 13 now, both WE LE kits. I have a WE Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz on order and hope to start next weekend. Man, this is fun.

I never heard of kit wines until I ran across a winemaking class when looking for a Christmas gift for my wife and I. I got hooked right away. I've told a few friends what I'm doing and get alot of strange looks.

So, far I've stayed with the kit directions and focused on high end kits (RJS En Primeur, Cellar Classics and WE Eclipse). My theory is that the higher end kits would result in wine that we like ourselves and would like to share with others - Big Reds and Chardonnay.

I have a Cellar Classics Super Tuscan and En Primeur Spanish Cab in the bottle about a year (1st two). I tasted both after about 10 months and the Super Tuscan was developing nicely. The Spanish Cab was fruit forward and definitely needs more time. I've read on the forum that this kit may take 2 years to develop.

This forum is great at providing info from much more experienced wine makers. I plan to start bulk aging the big reds going forward.

I'm finally getting to the question - when to move from kit directions to tweaking? It will be at least another 6-12 months before the stuff I've made has been in the bottle long enough to determine if it is "good enough" and meets my goal above or if I should start tweaking as other are doing in this forum. By that time, i'll likely have 600 bottles in the wine racks at the rate i'm going.

Should I start tweaking now? Any suggestions for the Shiraz?

Agree that the tweaks to the high end kits should be minimal. I do yeast swaps sometimes, skip sorbate, bulk age longer, add extra oak, and add tannins. All with a light hand.

 

[bkisel]

First... WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

I haven't tweaked any high end kits. A bit of bulk aging and all have easily satisfied my admittedly unsophisticated taste for wine.

Low end kits and country/fruit wines is where I'll tweak and experiment a bit.

So, good luck with all your wine making endeavors whether you decide to tweak or not any particular kit.

 

[Rocky]

Hey Vinodawg, welcome to the forum.

I guess I am the forum's salmon, always swimming against the current. While I agree that high end kits which are the only type of kit I make (in for a Penny, in for a Pound) need very little to improve them, I have on occasion done some tweaking. This is usually in the form of additional "background" flavors from various fruits. In the case of Shiraz, which has a notable blackberry background taste, I may add a 96 oz. can of blackberries (see example below) to the fermenter. Another tweak I have done is to change the "one size fits all" yeast that comes in most kits (mostly Lalvin EC-1118) for something that goes more specifically with the varietal.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Vintners..._286.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=shopping

Lastly, I agree with making only the high end kits. It takes the same amount of effort as a low end kit and the product is normally much better. The additional cost per bottle is minimal.

 

[ceeaton]

The fairest and best way to compare (in my humble opinion) would be to make two of the same kit, or split a single kit into 2 three gallon batches, and tweak one while leaving the other as the "standard" without tweaks.

It will take time (and effort) to figure out what tweaks, if any, are needed to get the wine to taste just how we personally like it best. But isn't that the fun of doing this?

Cheers and have fun! (oh and welcome to WMT)

 

[Boatboy24]

My 'tweaks' are now SOP for pretty much all the (red) kits I do. I don't recall the last red kit I did that DIDN'T have a grape pack, FYI. But I usually at least consider changing the yeast (if it is EC-1118, I'll swap, otherwise, I usually go with what's in the kit). I often add some tannin during fermentation, barrel age, and use finishing tannin. My kit barrel is neutral, so I'll use whatever oak is in the kit and will occasionally add more.

Oh, and the kits are usually 9-12 months old when they are bottled.

 

[Vinodawg]

My 'tweaks' are now SOP for pretty much all the (red) kits I do. I don't recall the last red kit I did that DIDN'T have a grape pack, FYI. But I usually at least consider changing the yeast (if it is EC-1118, I'll swap, otherwise, I usually go with what's in the kit). I often add some tannin during fermentation, barrel age, and use finishing tannin. My kit barrel is neutral, so I'll use whatever oak is in the kit and will occasionally add more.

Oh, and the kits are usually 9-12 months old when they are bottled.

Thanks for the input. My next kit is the WE Eclipse Shiraz which I assume will have EC-1118 based on what I've seen in other WE Eclipse kits. Have you used a different yeast with this kit?

Also, any other tweaks that have been done with this kit that I should consider?

 

[Boatboy24]

Thanks for the input. My next kit is the WE Eclipse Shiraz which I assume will have EC-1118 based on what I've seen in other WE Eclipse kits. Have you used a different yeast with this kit?

Also, any other tweaks that have been done with this kit that I should consider?

I haven't done this kit, but a good yeast for Shiraz/Syrah is RP15.

Here's a much more comprehensive listing:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

 

[Brian55]

Thanks for the input. My next kit is the WE Eclipse Shiraz which I assume will have EC-1118 based on what I've seen in other WE Eclipse kits. Have you used a different yeast with this kit?

Also, any other tweaks that have been done with this kit that I should consider?

We added an extra 30g of oak cubes during bulk aging (the kit came with 90g). It was quite oakey at bottling (12 months) but mellowed out to perfection by 18 months.
Of all the Eclipse reds, the Shiraz is one of the best.

 

[Vinodawg]

I haven't done this kit, but a good yeast for Shiraz/Syrah is RP15.

Here's a much more comprehensive listing:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

Jim,

Thanks for pointing me to this article. Great reference. Question - any guidelines on the quantity or should it generally be the same quantity that comes with the kit?

 

[Boatboy24]

Jim,

Thanks for pointing me to this article. Great reference. Question - any guidelines on the quantity or should it generally be the same quantity that comes with the kit?

Generally the same. If you buy your yeast from MoreWine, I think the packets are 8g, where others are 5g. Not a big deal - just use the whole pack.