Using Inert gas

[Doc]

which gases work the best for topping off: argon, nitrogen, CO2?

 

[JohnT]

I would say that if you are committed to using noble gas, Argon is the way to go.

IMHO, purging with noble gas is a waste of time and money if you are dealing with carboys. Just get them filled up and put your money toward wine making ingredients.

 

[grapezilla]

I think co2 is the heaviest so I'd hazard a guess it's the best. Gasses tend to mix freely so a mix of them could perhaps deliver a better protection by multiple layers?

To be honest I have no idea but still posted a reply

 

[sour_grapes]

I think co2 is the heaviest so I'd hazard a guess it's the best. Gasses tend to mix freely so a mix of them could perhaps deliver a better protection by multiple layers?

The statement that I bolded is the relevant one. Gases mix freely; there is no "blanketing" effect. If there is oxygen in the headspace, then that oxygen will have access to your wine. The other gases do NOT inhibit* the access.

(*This is not quite true; if introduced below the air layer, the other gases will inhibit access by the air for time periods of about 10 seconds to a minute.)

 

[ibglowin]

CO2 is what we are constantly trying to get rid of in wine. Argon while expensive is a better alternative for short term use.

 

[sdelli]

Argon is the best.... But since it is hard to get re-filled I use a Argon/co2 mix. You do not top your wine with gas.... You make the attempt to replace the space in a vassal from oxygen to gas.

 

[Doc]

no-one has mentioned nitrogen. How does that compare with argon? And which is less expensive?

 

[JohnT]

Doc,

Can I ask why you want to sparge and the size (volume) of headspace you are dealing with?

I believe that nitrogen can go into solution much like co2, making your wine effervescent. I believe that argon does not which is why it is preferred.

 

[ibglowin]

Nitrogen will work and some wineries use it just for that reason, its cheap, inert and will do the job. Down side is, it makes up 80% of our atmosphere, so it doesn't want to stay around but drift off unlike Argon which is heavier/denser than Nitrogen and will stay around longer than other inert gases. So it will work, it doesn't work as good as Nitrogen, but its cheaper so you can flush more. Bad news is you need to flush more as it will not stay around as long as Argon will. In the end it's better to rack down to a properly sized container as inert gas is only a short term solution, not a permanent fix for a large headspace.

 

[sour_grapes]

Doc,

Can I ask why you want to sparge and the size (volume) of headspace you are dealing with?

I believe that nitrogen can go into solution much like co2, making your wine effervescent. I believe that argon does not which is why it is preferred.

Not quite true. Because your must/wine has been exposed to nearly an atmosphere of nitrogen for its entire existence, it is already (nearly) saturated with nitrogen. No more will go into solution. (Well, a little more will, by ~20%, because air is not pure N2, but this small amount will not cause effervescence. You would need to pressurize the nitrogen, like in Guinness, to get enough nitrogen for effervescence.)

Argon can indeed go into solution in your wine. In fact, it is slightly more soluble than nitrogen. CO2 is much more soluble than either N2 or Ar, due to CO2's polar nature.

 

[sour_grapes]

Down side is, [nitrogen] makes up 80% of our atmosphere, so it doesn't want to stay around but drift off unlike Argon which is heavier/denser than Nitrogen and will stay around longer than other inert gases.

Not quite true. The fact that the atmosphere is largely nitrogen does not result in a driving force for nitrogen to leave. Actually, quite the contrary: the entropic driving force for nitrogen to leave is greatly reduced by the composition of the atmosphere. (Another way to say this is that, when one of your N2 molecules leaves your carboy, there is an 80% chance that another N2 from the atmosphere will replace it.)

Ar is indeed ~28% heavier than air, but this is of essentially no consequence for gas mixing. The kinetic energy of the gas motion is many, many times larger than the potential energy from gravity. As a wise man once said:

The theory of blanketing with inert gas is plain hogwash. Like Paul says it will all diffuse together over time. The only way it works is to flush flush flush the headspace with either Argon or Nitrogen (which is cheaper than Argon) and then seal tightly.

 

[richmke]

If inert gasses don't work, are there any ert gasses that might?

 

[ibglowin]

Way to early in the morning to be discussing entropy…… LOL

 

[JohnT]

Thanks for the clarification grapes..


Hey, I love the sound of thermodynamics in the morning!

 

[cmason1957]

I don't like a discussion of thermodynamics anytime of the day. Way to many flashbacks to engineering classes at 7 (fricking) 30 in the morning.

 

[digitaleye]

Actual facts aside Most wineries around here use argon. Heres yet another perspective

http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm

 

[sour_grapes]

If there is oxygen in the headspace, then that oxygen will have access to your wine.

Actual facts aside Most wineries around here use argon. Heres yet another perspective

http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm

I have read the article you linked to before, and think that it is fairly sound. The article is mostly talking about purging (i.e., displacing oxygen from the headspace). Argon, due to its density, does have an advantage in purging. This advantage is only manifested for a short time after introduction, i.e., before the gases have time to mix. Note that I was very careful in my statement (quoted above) to encompass this fact.

To summarize: inert gases may be successfully used to reduce the amount of oxygen in the headspace, but even the densest ones are not able, if oxygen remains in the headspace, to provide any lasting protection from any putative blanketing effect.

 

[Doc]

It appears to me that not using argon to reduce the oxygen levels in head space is akin to deciding not to wash your hands before eating because they won't be sterile anyway!

 

[stickman]

Inert gas is just a tool and Sour is pointing out that the tool has limitations that we all need to understand. Inert gas isn't absolutely necessary for red wine, and many people make good wine without it. I don't think anyone would disagree, for long duration storage a full tank or carboy is best. Carboy closures usually allow some oxygen to pass and that oxygen will have access to the surface of the wine whether you purge the headspace or not. I have Argon and CO2 on hand because I like having the tool. I'll admit, I've used Argon to purge a half empty carboy for a week or two knowing I was going to rack and top up soon. I use Argon for all white wine transfers unless the wine is still fermenting. For reds, I'll use Argon near the end of bulk storage during filtration as well as bottling. I've modified my corker to use CO2 to purge the head space before corking (not necessary, a little crazy, but it's my nature to tinker).

 

[NorCal]

I bought the "head space eliminator", which draws a vacuum on a partially filled carboy, down to about 15 inches of mercury. Is there anyway to calculate the % reduction of oxygen exposure? Is it 50% or 99.9%?