using clearing agents, which are best and should we use more than one?

[shanek17]

I am going to buy some clearing agents as I prepare to make some more wine from frozen concentrate, but this time I will use some clearing agents. I've heard bentonite is great and I've heard of it being used in combination with ascorbic acid. Do I really need both or is that over kill? Which are you favorite clearing agents and why?

I currently have my first wine kit in clearing stage, so soon I will see how effective the clearing additives are. My kit used bentonite , kieselsol and chitosan. And just to let you know what I'm looking for, I want my wine to be able to clear in a decent amount of time so I can get it bottled. I understand ageing is good too, but ageing doesn't sound good when my fruit juice is from frozen concentrate or cheap wine kits. haha

 

[cpfan]

I am going to buy some clearing agents as I prepare to make some more wine from frozen concentrate, but this time I will use some clearing agents. I've heard bentonite is great and I've heard of it being used in combination with ascorbic acid. Do I really need both or is that over kill? Which are you favorite clearing agents and why?

Ascorbic acid is not a clearing agent. Are you thinking of something else?.

I'm primarily a kit maker, so I normally just go with whatever the kit includes. In my few non-kit wines, I have used bentonite (prior to fermentation) and isinglass (post fermentation) with success. For the post fermentation component, a lot of people use Super Kleer KC. It's a Kieselsol-Chitosan combo.

BTW, I understand that bentonite should not be used with one pre-fermentation additive. I think it's pectic enzyme, but I'm not certain. That's why bentonite is not always used pre-fermentation.

Steve

 

[Minnesotamaker]

Winemaker magazine had a good article on fining agents back in 2007. I've used it as a reference piece many times. You can find it here, hope it helps you as much as it did me.
Understanding Fining Agents

 

[shanek17]

Ascorbic acid is not a clearing agent. Are you thinking of something else?.

I'm primarily a kit maker, so I normally just go with whatever the kit includes. In my few non-kit wines, I have used bentonite (prior to fermentation) and isinglass (post fermentation) with success. For the post fermentation component, a lot of people use Super Kleer KC. It's a Kieselsol-Chitosan combo.

BTW, I understand that bentonite should not be used with one pre-fermentation additive. I think it's pectic enzyme, but I'm not certain. That's why bentonite is not always used pre-fermentation.

Steve

Actually I meant pectic enzyme! Not ascorbic acid. That's funny you say that Bentonite and pectic shouldn't be used together because I was just reading about how they are used together. now I'm trying to think where I heard that....I'm just Wondering if it noticeably helps by using more than one clearing agent.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I think you have to understand that fining agents are used for various reasons. You don't say white or red wines. So let's assume you mean White most Reds clear themselves to an acceptable level given time. So start with the basics. Bentonite is the least invasive. A good place to start. I know some Sterile Juice comes with instructions telling you to add it at the beginning of fermentation. I would not do that. Mosti Mondale Sterile Juice also comes with a 2 part fining system for use at the end. I think that is overkill. There is no problem using the Bentonite at the end, seeing the results, if not happy after a tight filtering then go with a 2 part agent and filter again. 95 percent of the time you will not need the 2 part agent. My guess is they provide both to speed up the end results. Kits included, you will make better wine when you are not in a hurry. When you read about all the fining agents available and try to decide which others you may want to use, you enter into a different realm. On a commercial or very serious amateur winemaking level bench tests are performed using multiple fining agents on multiple samples. Then visual and Taste Testing is used to decide which one to use. Yes different fining agents affect different wines differently with regards to taste while most will do the job of clearing. Keep in mind that sterile juice and concentrates are processed so most of the tough clearing issues you can encounter have been addressed. As far as Pectic Enzyme's use, this is used in fresh White Must to settle the juice better and increase yield after pressing. It should not be used in Reds. Bentonite kills the effect of Enzyme as does Tannin additions during Cold Soaking Reds or on rare occasion a cold soaking White. Which is why Tannin or Oak Chips should be added after lag phase and not before so as to not hamper the enzymes effect that may have been used during the crush and cold soaking. The Golden Rule is the least invasive and the less fining you need to use the better.
Malvina

 

[tonyandkory]

We are like you Shane. quick to the bottle. I like bottle aging better than bulk as it frees up my space for more.
we add Bentonite in the begging and use pectic enzyme if using whole fruits (not just juice) then in the end we usually go with Super-Klear (two part)
Our wines are usually in the bottle with in 2/4 months

... Caution ... I would rack at least twice before using in the end... I have had wine drop sediment in the bottle because I went too fast and there was too much left for the clearing agents to handle.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

We are like you Shane. quick to the bottle. I like bottle aging better than bulk as it frees up my space for more.
we add Bentonite in the begging and use pectic enzyme if using whole fruits (not just juice) then in the end we usually go with Super-Klear (two part)
Our wines are usually in the bottle with in 2/4 months

... Caution ... I would rack at least twice before using in the end... I have had wine drop sediment in the bottle because I went too fast and there was too much left for the clearing agents to handle.

I don't make fruit wine but it is true that whole Fruits have much more pectin than grapes. But using the Bentonite at the same time using the Pectic Enzyme is reducing its effectiveness. You can drop the pectin after you crush and press your fruit with the enzyme and after you rack off the lees then can add the bentonite to the settled juice with your yeast culture.

 

[tonyandkory]

I don't make fruit wine but it is true that whole Fruits have much more pectin than grapes. But using the Bentonite at the same time using the Pectic Enzyme is reducing its effectiveness. You can drop the pectin after you crush and press your fruit with the enzyme and after you rack off the lees then can add the bentonite to the settled juice with your yeast culture.

I had no idea Mal.

I did a little research and the best procedure is what you said ... use it 12-24 hours before ferment 12-24 hours.


Wade E said in a post "I have always added my pectic enzyme 12 hours after adding everything else except yeast and then added yeast 12 hours after that. I always did that though knowing that pectic enzyme does not work well in very warm temps and I always start my batches by pouring very hot water over my fruit."


Jack Keller on another "For the most part, pectic enzyme does its thing pretty quick -- within 10-16 hours -- but remains in the wine and capable of breaking down pectin until removed (usually by racking). Leaving it in the primary or secondary will not harm the wine, but removing it with Bentonite after it has served it useful purpose shouldn't cause a problem either. "


probably the smart way to go

Thanks for the enlightenment

 

[shanek17]

Winemaker magazine had a good article on fining agents back in 2007. I've used it as a reference piece many times. You can find it here, hope it helps you as much as it did me.
Understanding Fining Agents

thanks for the link, I started reading it last night and so far so good!

 

[robie]

Actually, kits are a little different than fresh/frozen grapes/fruit wines, when it comes to using bentonite during fermentation. With a kit, there are no enzyme issue to deal with, which haven't been taken into account by the manufacturer. So, most kits have you add bentonite during fermentation as an aid to yeast mobilization, for one.

 

[tingo]

Wine particles carry a negative or positive charge. Good practice is to add a fining agent of negative charge to attract positive, allow time to work, then add the other for the same reason. Since red wine contains tannin which holds a neg charge it fines itself. I add egg whites for the positive charge agent. Never add bentonite to red wine. Robie can you explain more about bentonite helping yeast??? Thank you!!

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Wine particles carry a negative or positive charge. Good practice is to add a fining agent of negative charge to attract positive, allow time to work, then add the other for the same reason. Since red wine contains tannin which holds a neg charge it fines itself. I add egg whites for the positive charge agent. Never add bentonite to red wine. Robie can you explain more about bentonite helping yeast??? Thank you!!

If you are adding Egg Whites to fine a red then you have to be aware you are not just clarifying but also reducing tannin levels which might be something you do not desire.
Also there is no hard rule on not using Bentonite and it has its uses for Reds.
As it has the capacity to remove the colloidal fraction of the pigments preventing settling of sediment later in the bottle. Also it is used to remove Cu from wines treated with CuSo2.

Before Robie answers I can add that Opti Red or Booster Rouge can provide the same help with added benefits.

Also Yeast Hulls which impart no sensory effect are a great way to remove and absorb poisons produced by yeasts especially when in a high alcohol environment or stressed from other factors.

A good resource for this is Emile Peynaud's Book "Knowing and Making Wine"
Malvina