Untoasted oak barrel

[WI_Wino]

My dad bought an untoasted American oak 5 gallon barrel a number of years ago. He used it once, left a Chardonnay in for about a month. It was completely over oaked, still undrinkable after several years in the bottle. It's been sitting in his basement unused since then.

I've got a couple of cheaper red kits going, a cab and a sangiovese, and was considering borrowing it to age them in. Before I start to figure out how to clean/sanitize and get the barrel ready to go, I wanted get the group's opinion/thoughts on if the untoasted barrel is worth it. I saw the untoasted oak chip thread and it appears untoasted oak can be beneficial to the yeast during fermentation but little on aging. Frequent tasting will be required to ensure the oaking doesn't go crazy.

 

[jimmyjames23]

You will need to fill that barrel with water and a teaspoon k meta first. You need it to swell to check for leaks. It will very likely leak.
When the leaking has stopped it's ready for sulphur burning.
So you need to buy some sulphur sticks or disks.

Did you want to toast the barrel first?

 

[jimmyjames23]

If it doesn't stop leaking you will need to remove the cleats and tighten the hoops while half full standing on end. Filled one inch below the bung hole.
Lots to learn about barrels.

 

[jimmyjames23]

Here's a link on barrel toasting.

I use a waste basket (mesh wire) I bought at a dollar shoppe.
Toasting will drastically remove the new oak flavor.

http://youtu.be/SJ-N0q6MT0U

 

[WI_Wino]

I recognize that I have a fair amount of prep work to get the barrel the ready, thanks for the info and links.

Before I try to swell the barrel and plug any leaks though, sounds like I should figure out if I want to toast it. Toasting reduces the amount of oak a barrel imparts on the wine? Or just the speed? Also does toasting significant change the flavor the barrel imparts vs. untoasted? I've read about the benefits of micro oxygenation but it seems like it'll take a larger number of batches to be run through an untoasted barrel to get to that point.

 

[jimmyjames23]

Toasted barrels impart a toasted oak taste. Coincidentally this is a much milder taste then untoasted oak.
There are essentially two ways you can deal with an untoasted barrel. Store wine in it for no more than two weeks first batch, on the next batch four weeks the 2nd batch, six weeks 3rd batch. By eight weeks it will provide a continuous Oak flavor.
Just be sure to sulphide between batches.

If you want to powerwash and toast the barrel with the top off I can give you detailed instructions and some you tube vids.

You'll need a Hoop Driver. How handy are you?

 

[jimmyjames23]

Ps. You still need to soak the barrel before toasting if its been sitting dry for months.

I've seen barrels sitting for a long time...they're not pretty inside. Take a flashlight and check for crystals.

 

[Deezil]

Personally, i wouldn't toast the barrel.. If you want a toasted barrel, i'd buy another newer one

Toasting the oak, changes the chemical make-up of the wood basically.. Allowing the release of different compounds that contribute different aromas, flavors and structure.. Depends on where the wood came from and what shape the wood is in (chips, cubes, staves, barrels) as to how long it takes or how strong the effect can be..

Your dad was onto something, i think, in having the Chardonnay in there, although the way i'd use the barrel probably isnt along the same lines as what he did.

I'd use it as a primary fermenter, basically. Atleast for a while, while it still has 'goods' to give up. I wouldnt age a wine in it, until it was neutral - but i'd gladly run any number of white wines, fruit wines, and red wines could probably benefit from it as well. When it was neutral though, it'd be wooden-gold for micro-oxygenating fruit wines w/o oak impact

There's another thread going into more of the details we've managed to stir up about untoasted oak; i definitely see benefits to this.. Untoasted oak adds structure & helps reduce vegetative/herbaceous characters

 

[WI_Wino]

I'm pretty handy, we've done some extensive remodeling and the house hasn't fallen down yet. I would be comfortable pulling the hoops off of one side to pop an end off. I took a flashlight, peeked in through the hold and the inside of the barrel looks mildewy. I'd say a cleaning is definitely in order.

At this point I'm leaning towards not toasting the barrel. From what I've gathered you can plane a barrel down and toast it at a later date. I'm thinking about keeping it simple for my first go around. Clean it, button up any leaks, throw in a couple of batches and sample frequently.

 

[jimmyjames23]

I'm pretty handy, we've done some extensive remodeling and the house hasn't fallen down yet. I would be comfortable pulling the hoops off of one side to pop an end off. I took a flashlight, peeked in through the hold and the inside of the barrel looks mildewy. I'd say a cleaning is definitely in order.

At this point I'm leaning towards not toasting the barrel. From what I've gathered you can plane a barrel down and toast it at a later date. I'm thinking about keeping it simple for my first go around. Clean it, button up any leaks, throw in a couple of batches and sample frequently.

Sounds like a plan.
You'll need a cooper's croze to plane the barrel.
To remove the head. First loosen the bilge hoop. Then the quarter hoop then the head hoop. With the hoops (one side only) loosened you'll be able to remove the head hoop and then the head. Do not remove the bilge or quarter hoop. You'll mess up the barrel.
With the head off you can powerwash the crap out of it. Don't use bleach or cleaners.
When it dries you can plane the interior if you like. If its a Hungarian barrel the staves will be flat on the inside making it easy to plane with a regular Home Depot available hand plane. American and French barrels have curved staves making a croze a necessity.

Good luck, keep me posted.

 

[WI_Wino]

The barrel hoops were already pretty loose. I putzed around with the barrel a little this morning. The head hoop slides right off. The bilge and quarter hoop are loose but still attached to the barrel. I wasn't able to get the head off yet. Looks like I"ll have to pull out the pins so the other hoops can slide up so I can pull out the head. More to come...

Also I found a useful link for basic barrel anatomy: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~flbbm/heritage/cooper/barrelmaking.htm

 

[WI_Wino]

Also I have a pound of BarolKleen that was laying around as well. Would I still want to use this after powerwashing and burning a sulpher strip? Or is BarolKleen supposedly a replacement for power washing?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/barolkleen-1.html

 

[jimmyjames23]

I've never used BaroKleen. The thought of lye in wood/wine freaks me out a little.
Most guys around here (Niagara Region) powerwash, and sulphur.

That barrel looks great. Pop those cleats out and get to work.
Just remember...only remove the head hoop.
Or you'll have firewood.

PS for toasting I use a 500g bag of your favorite oak chips. But the darker they are... The faster they burn.

 

[WI_Wino]

You must not be a fan of lutefisk then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk

 

[ibglowin]

Looks like its in pretty good shape!

 

[WI_Wino]

Thanks. The pictures don't show it but I think there may be some mildew/mold on the outside. I'll try to get a close up tonight. If I can get the head off, we'll really be able to see what I'm up against...

Good to hear other people think it's in good shape. I'm concerned as it just sat for several years.

 

[Rocky]

WI wino, I would pull the hoop nails, pound down all of the hoops to tighten them with a flat faced chisel, reset the nails, fill it with hot water and lots of k-meta (maybe 3 or 4 tablespoons), close it up, let it sit for a week or two and then rinse it well with clear water. Should be fine.

 

[WI_Wino]

No powerwashing as jimmyjames suggests? From what I've gathered reviewing the posts it seems that you have used oak barrels. Have you ever done anything but rinse?

 

[WI_Wino]

Got one head off of the barrel tonight. I had to take off both the head hoop and quarter hoop. With just the bilge hoop on I can see what you (jimmyjames) were talking about, the staves get a little wobbly. Anyway here are some pictures of the insides. To my untrained eye it looks like a ton of mildew. Is this bad for an oak barrel? Normal? Unheard of?

Mildew on the outside of the barrel

 

[Rocky]

If you take a good whiff at the bung opening, what type of odor do you get? Is it moldy? Vinegar? Oak? Wine? Something else?

Quite frankly, there may be nothing that can be done with the barrel and you are better off getting a new one. If you want to try to recover this one, I suggest tightening up the staves as I suggested above first, adding hot water and K-meta solution (a little lemon juice would not hurt in the K-meta solution) filling the barrel. Let it sit for a week, drain it, rinse it with water and then do the sniff test again. If the off odors are gone and you smell only oak, you might have a chance at recovering the barrel. At this point, when it is airtight, I would burn the sulfur stick inside and let the gas work for a few weeks. Rinse it again with water (preferably hot water) and do another sniff. If the odors are gone and the confidence level is high, I would run a kit through it (probably not an expensive kit!) and see what happens.

Yes, I have used oak barrels from 6 gallon to 50 gallon (a long while ago). When we emptied a barrel and had the wine bottled, we just rinsed them with hot water until the "water ran clear" and let them dry. We had two holes in our barrels, one for the bung and one for the spigot so they dried fairly fast. We replaced the bung and stoppered the spigot opening and kept them until the next year. When the next year came, we filled them with water to make sure they did not leak and then burned a sulfur stick in each one before adding new wine.

I read back through your postings on this subject and it is not clear how old the barrel is or when was the last time it was used or how it was cared for when put away. In your shoes, (and this is just I) I would go for it with this reasoning: I have about a 50-50 chance of recovering the barrel; I can get a $50 bucket of juice and make enough wine to fill it; if it works, I have 5 gallons of wine and saved $150 on a new barrel, if it does not I have 5 gallons of vinegar and two planters for my patio.