To sanitize or not, is there a compromise?

[joeswine]

Down the road

As you make more batches, down the road you'll find the right way to do things has been handed down to us, from professionals and at times they do they do know what they're doing , that'sbwhy their profession.............. sometimes you follow have to follow the teachings. S

 

[shanek17]

As you make more batches, down the road you'll find the right way to do things has been handed down to us, from professionals and at times they do they do know what they're doing , that'sbwhy their profession.............. sometimes you follow have to follow the teachings. S

Who do you mean when you say professionals ? that's kind of a broad perspective for beer brewers. Although when I think of commercial beer brewers I think they really do need a different procedure for sanitation. If you consider how different it is for a large commercial brewer it makes sense to me. They have large batches worth thousands of dollars or more that are at stake, and they do not want to compromise that. Also their environment may be totally different from our own environment here as home brewers. At home I can easily wipe down my kitchen and give it a quick sanitizing and even after as I take care of my brew I can easily keep things clean. But in a large brewing building it may be harder to keep that much surface area clean and sanitized all the time... perhaps there are other factors involved, but I thought id put that in perspective, because we cant just do everything exactly the same as the professionals if the variables are different.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

Malvina. when you say a solution of Citric Acid, are you talking just Citric Acid? I use a meta/citric solution that is about 50/50 of each.

 

[shanek17]

Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer.
Malvina

Can you tell us some more about this iv heard citric acid is powerful for home brewers. As the poster below mentioned id like to know how its mixed and if its simply citric acid. Can it be used within the wine or mead to protect from oxygen and kill the yeast? or is it strictly for sanitizing outside the wine/mead.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Malvina. when you say a solution of Citric Acid, are you talking just Citric Acid? I use a meta/citric solution that is about 50/50 of each.

Yes just Citric. You would be surprised how little K meta is used for cleaning and washing tanks and equipment. First is is not good for stainless and workers can't get into tanks and clean with it. And it is far more expensive.

Can it be used within the wine or mead to protect from oxygen and kill the yeast? or is it strictly for sanitizing outside the wine/mead.


Citric Acid protects no more than Tartaric Acid. If I remember correctly it should not exceed 3/4 teaspoon per gallon as it can give a still wine a fizz and creates an artificial flavor. However in small amount it can freshen up a white wine.
Malvina

 

[GreginND]

As with anything used as a sanitizer, be careful that you don't allow it to get into your wine in any appreciable amounts. Not only will citric acid increase the acidity, but if you are doing an ML fermentation it will be metabolized to produce more diacetyl which may give unwanted aromas and flavors.

 

[Marauderer]

I have always followed the directions on my 4 megar batches and they have aged great. I have been wanting to branch out, so to speak, and try a batch using just the mead concentrate and add everything else.

 

[joeswine]

sanatation,what's the meaning

this is a subject unto itself and needs to broken down into three separate meanings---sanitation,---cleaning---and sterilization---these are the actual steps we use in the industry to safe guard the wine,not all agree on the correct method or the means to achieve the end result,but the net result is the same,to create a healthy wine you need to start out right.

if you care to follow me on (when good wines gone bad ) cleaning up, I will discuss the steps as I see them and the products we use to help us get there...

when good wines gone bad (cleaning up )

 

[GreginND]

Thanks Joe. Right on. There are definitely different topics here.

In my original reply I did not mean to imply that we should not sanitize anything. I was responding to the original poster's question about whether or not we go overboard and is there a happy medium. My opinion is that we should use common sense.

 

[joeswine]

Off the beaton path

Thanks for taking a look, when good wines gone bad was developed ,is really the culmination my own experiences and that of the people around me in winemaking industry ,whether their home winemakers or some of my friends ,a couple of my associates who own actual wineries .

Now I'll start,( when go wines gone bad)

Cleaning up

 

[troutstix]

Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer.
Malvina

Hi Malvina,
Do you know what dilution ratio they are using to make a Citric Acid sanitizing solution? Thanks in advance!
ts

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Hi Malvina,
Do you know what dilution ratio they are using to make a Citric Acid sanitizing solution? Thanks in advance!
ts

I am hearing 4-8 tablespoons per gallon. I use a tablespoon of k meta as well. It is very strong and you have to be careful not to inhale.
Malvina

 

[rjb222]

Citric acid in it's self is not a sanitizing solution. The addition of citric acid to Sodium Metabisulfite increases the strength of the sodium metabisulfite. It also shortens the life time use of the sodium metabisulfite. When mixing a proper solution of citric acid and sodium metabisulfite use 1/4 tsp. Sodium metabisulfite 1 Tsp citric acid or a multiplication of those base amounts. One needs to respect the use of chemicals while use properly they are helpful and harmless used incorrectly you can make some thing that is undrinkable or worse poisonous.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Citric acid in it's self is not a sanitizing solution. The addition of citric acid to Sodium Metabisulfite increases the strength of the sodium metabisulfite. It also shortens the life time use of the sodium metabisulfite. When mixing a proper solution of citric acid and sodium metabisulfite use 1/4 tsp. Sodium metabisulfite 1 Tsp citric acid or a multiplication of those base amounts. One needs to respect the use of chemicals while use properly they are helpful and harmless used incorrectly you can make some thing that is undrinkable or worse poisonous.

What you say is the conventional wisdom of Amateur Winemakers yet if you talk to a variety of commercial winemakers Citric is used exclusively. And there are reasons why. Citric does not produce toxic fumes and is safer for Stainless. It is much more economical. And in the proper strength will kill bacteria. Imagine getting in closed top tank to clean it with a solution of K meta. Not going to happen much less with a solution you describe.
Malvina

 

[jensmith]

Question. How many of you rinse off your equipment with tap water after you sanatise it? I keep finding myself trying to rinse off the nasty sanatizers before letting my equipment touch the wine. Even though the directions say NOT to! Especisly at botteling time. Although with the cambdon I don't have that erge as much as with the star san. I know I nuts, is anyone else?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I do not rinse as I have well water and no clorine to kill off any bacteria - and I would be defeating the purpose of santazing

I will also add 1 tsp of equal amounts of sulfite and citric or tartric acid for my solution = the acid will drop the ph from water which os 7.0 to wine levels aprox 3.5 and the sulfite will be much more efficient.

Question ?
If I dont add acid and rince my bottles with the label - which is 2 oz to 1 gallon of water. Once I add my wine to those bottles with all that residue - will that increase my sulfite levels in my wine that is in the bottles ?

 

[rjb222]

What you say is the conventional wisdom of Amateur Winemakers yet if you talk to a variety of commercial winemakers Citric is used exclusively. And there are reasons why. Citric does not produce toxic fumes and is safer for Stainless. It is much more economical. And in the proper strength will kill bacteria. Imagine getting in closed top tank to clean it with a solution of K meta. Not going to happen much less with a solution you describe.
Malvina

Thats funny I was just at a convention at Niagra at the lake. I asked the head vintner for RJS this exact question. And the answer I was given was exactly what I originaly posted. She Just started with RJS and has extensive comercail experiance and said that there were certain things that were very different with kit wine making with the chemestry used and the law that forces kit juice to be pasturized. Very interesting conference indeed.

 

[rjb222]

The only reference i can find on a commercial site comes from The Vintners Vault. Here is the cut and paste.

Chlorinated TSP is used for sanitation of stainless steel items, floors and most plastics, the typical dosage is 1 cup per 5 gallons and must be rinsed with a citric acid solution to neutralize the residue.

For use in sanitation of all equipment, and surfaces inside and outside of a winery. (Not for use with barrels) To be used in conjunction with Citric Acid. Using a five step process, a surface must be rinsed, then the TSP solution, another rinse, a Citric Acid solution, and finalized with a rinse. The surface is now sanitized.

The chlorinated TSP is the sanitizer the citric acid is the neutralizer.
I went to LDCarelson,Grape Stompers and several others none recommend using citric acid on it's own as a sanitizer. They had different concentrations of mixture and on the Grape stompers site they outright said there was many different solution mixture concentrations there was a book quoted the had two different concentrations listed in the same book. Each sit though did list a basic sanitizing solution of 1 part potassium or sodium metabisulfite to 4 parts citric acid.

 

[spaniel]

No experience with commercial-scale wineries, but on the dairy farm we used phosphoric acid solution on the stainless steel equipment and pipelines.

For winemaking, I've never been the anal sort. As has been said, you are not pasteurizing the grapes as they are mashed so starting with 100% sterile equipment is a waste of time. The goal is to get the mashed grapes sulfated and into active fermentation in an expedient fashion...if you dilly-dally long enough, the bacteria WILL catch up with you, despite how you sanitize your equipment.

Having made >1500gal of wine in 5gal batches over the past decade, I have never lost a batch to spoilage. I wash equipment with soap/water, cap clean carbuoys after cleaning and rinse again before use. Most equipment is simply soap/water washed after use. Corks are soaked in campden tablet solution before use. Bottles are typically soaked in bleach water (helps with label removal), thoroughly rinsed, then the mouth covered with tinfoil before putting in the oven on low heat to dry out. During bottling, the foil serves as a temporary cap after filling before corking as a batch.

The one thing I have bucked conventional wisdom on is primary fermentation. I probably seal mine off from air more than most people. Needed? Probably not, many get away without it. However, as a biochemist and cell biologist I can't help myself.