temperature during fermentation

[brendathebrewer]

What is ideal for primary fermentation and does one test it by pushing the cap down first and taking temp of total amount?

My batch is chokecherry and Saskatoon all with seeds, pulp and skins. started with 1090 SG

temperature since start is constant 72 also after adding yeast 2 days ago. Last night added a little acid blend and half amount yeast nutrient and SG was 1080. This morning temp was 78 and had a big hot cap, I pushed it down and remeasured temperature and its still 72 so just the cap was hot.

what is the ideal temperature, should I control it along the way or let it naturally peak in temperature, if so what is maximum and would it be better to control along the way. I have three different rooms all with warm to cool temperatures so easy to move the bucket.

 

[JohnT]

OK,

You ask a big question..

Ideal Temperature - well that depends. Fermentation temperature greatly affects the end product. Cold fermentations (60 to 70 degrees) keep much of the fruit quality of the wine (much like a light riesling or gewertz). Hot fermentations (say 80 - 95 degrees) will "burn off" much of this fruit quality, but make the wine's flavor much more complex (like a chardonnay). It is all about preference. I do advise that you not let the fermentation go to, say, 110 degrees as this could have some bad results.

Technique - I have a long thermometer. I insert it past the cap and into the must before I punch down.

Your temp going from 72 to 78 degrees is normal. This is to be expected when your must is happily fermenting away (especially on day 2 or 3).

 

[brendathebrewer]

thank you john,

so if I prefer more "fruit quality" would I be wise to lower the temperature to in the 60's? have read that variations in temperature are not good so maybe it is too late.

does the must continue to gain heat as the days and fermentation goes on. therefore keep moving it to cooler rooms?

my must is 72 beneath the cap and 75 is now cap temperature, I moved it to a little bit cooler room now.

sorry for all the amateur questions, its my first batch ever. one last one is is it best to simply push the cap down twice a day (if this is correct) or to give it a big stir as well? and is another way to control the temperature to lift the lid off a few times a day to let some of the heat out? I have a sealed lid not completely snapped down and a Kleenex overtop of the open airlock hole.

I have read bits and pieces on this forum and by googling, haven't found a complete guide anywhere explaining all these minor details, sure am learning as I go along!!

what would u, others do to ensure a good first wine?

 

[LoveTheWine]

It's kinda a trade off. Fermenting cooler will give you more fruit flavors but not as much color/body is extracted from the skins on the fruit. A warmer ferment will extract way more color.

 

[seth8530]

Yep, one thing to remember what is HOT and what is COLD all depends on the yeast strain, you should nearly always do your best to stay within the temperature range used by the yeast.

 

[brendathebrewer]

but will the wine will automatically raise its temperature with each passing day or if I want a higher temperature I must put in a warmer place? I am using lalvin ec1118. so this withstands temperature until 86 and perhaps I should go with a higher temperature rather than lower to take advantage of the full body and antioxidants in the skins.

but if I decide to go with a higher temperature and I must control this exclusively is it too late? has been 2 days since fermentation started.

 

[seth8530]

It is not too late, but might have been better to do it from the get go. Please be aware that over heating the yeast can produce some off flavours, so hotter is not always better. But, if you want to make it hotter you could insulate the fermentation vessel or possibly apply some sort of heat to the fermenter such as a heat blanket or something of the sort. Just be careful not to over do it.

Honestly, I personally tend to prefer cold fermentation techniques for most of my wines because I like the fruitier expression that results especially for meads/fruit wines.

 

[beggarsu]

It is not too late, but might have been better to do it from the get go. Please be aware that over heating the yeast can produce some off flavours, so hotter is not always better. But, if you want to make it hotter you could insulate the fermentation vessel or possibly apply some sort of heat to the fermenter such as a heat blanket or something of the sort. Just be careful not to over do it.

Honestly, I personally tend to prefer cold fermentation techniques for most of my wines because I like the fruitier expression that results especially for meads/fruit wines.

This is a good thread for information.

So would you lower the temperature a bit if you are fermenting past one month - say form 6 months to 8 months. What temperature would you use then.
Most people seem to "ferment" their fruit wines a long time ie 3-8 to even 12 months.
I know it's secondary, slow slow fermentation and at some point it must come close to dead zero and I guess they are then just bulk aging it.
But still they haven't stabilized the wine batch with Potassium Sorbate and (Campden or K-meta) so technically I guess it is still being "fermented".

If you were doing that would you keep something that fermented at 20-25 C in the first month at 20 C for the next 5 months before stabilization?

@ JohnT - good information in your post. I also ask you the same question as above.

thanks all

edit : I also thought the fruit wine yeast needed (#EC1118, I think) to be above 20C - but apparently not as per the practice above by several people. But I suppose there might be the risk of the fermentation stopping if below 20 C? One would have to keep a close eye on it I suppose?

Started winemaking this spring. I have done rhubarb (2 batches) , crabapple and raspberry-banana (just started) for this summer - none of them bottled yet.

 

[seth8530]

This is a good thread for information.

So would you lower the temperature a bit if you are fermenting past one month - say form 6 months to 8 months. What temperature would you use then.
Most people seem to "ferment" their fruit wines a long time ie 3-8 to even 12 months.
I know it's secondary, slow slow fermentation and at some point it must come close to dead zero and I guess they are then just bulk aging it.
But still they haven't stabilized the wine batch with Potassium Sorbate and (Campden or K-meta) so technically I guess it is still being "fermented".

If you were doing that would you keep something that fermented at 20-25 C in the first month at 20 C for the next 5 months before stabilization?

@ JohnT - good information in your post. I also ask you the same question as above.

thanks all

edit : I also thought the fruit wine yeast needed (#EC1118, I think) to be above 20C - but apparently not as per the practice above by several people. But I suppose there might be the risk of the fermentation stopping if below 20 C? One would have to keep a close eye on it I suppose?

Started winemaking this spring. I have done rhubarb (2 batches) , crabapple and raspberry-banana (just started) for this summer - none of them bottled yet.

In a healthy fermentation, you can expect fermentation to be done almost always within 2 weeks. The rest of the process is dedicated mostly to aging the wine. Which is a completely different phase of the wine making process than fermentation.

To give you an idea from a recent experiment of mine, once the lag phase had passed my hot fermented dragons blood fermented within around 3 days and the cold fermented batch was done in around a week.

The risk of a fermentation stopping is mostly a dependence of available nutrients and sugar for the yeast to eat, as well as a healthy acid profile. Thus, while abrupt temperature changes can make the yeast give up or stall out, so long as you are operating within range of the yeast temperature tolerance things should be ok.

 

[beggarsu]

In a healthy fermentation, you can expect fermentation to be done almost always within 2 weeks. The rest of the process is dedicated mostly to aging the wine. Which is a completely different phase of the wine making process than fermentation.

To give you an idea from a recent experiment of mine, once the lag phase had passed my hot fermented dragons blood fermented within around 3 days and the cold fermented batch was done in around a week.

The risk of a fermentation stopping is mostly a dependence of available nutrients and sugar for the yeast to eat, as well as a healthy acid profile. Thus, while abrupt temperature changes can make the yeast give up or stall out, so long as you are operating within range of the yeast temperature tolerance things should be ok.

The question was what is that temperature? And I just researched the answer :
"This strain ferments well over a very wide temperature range, from 10° to 30°C (50° to 86°F)"
from http://www.lalvinyeast.com/EC1118.asp

...
So that is much lower that I thought, though probably not wise to do it at the extreme lower. But I see one can easily nurse it along below 20 C.
...
The question still applies - that is still wine being processed not finished wine , so what temperature to keep it at after 2 weeks, until bottling time which according to many recipes could be 3-8 months.?

I think there might be some extremely slow miniscule fermentation going on so it seems it it still technically in a state of fermentation until agents are added to stop or prevent any further fermentation. All those recipes have the wine in carboys with airlocks and haven't yet added campden or K-meta plus potassium Sorbate so they are allowing further miniscule fermentation , if there is any less dropage however minute. Else why not add these things at the two week mark?
If it is mostly bulk storage then what is the other part of "mostly"? Is there anything else?
If it is really only bulk aging then is there really that much difference in eventual taste? Why not just bottle after one month and let it age in the bottles rather than waste carboy usage? I am opting for three months I think anything beyond that must be beyond the abilities of my palate and it seems anything beyond that makes the wine at risk of oxidation - it seems safer to get it out of the carboy and airlock system and finish /stabilize it.

 

[jamesngalveston]

it seems safer to get it out of the carboy and airlock system and finish /stabilize it.
I agree with that 100 percent all though some dont ...I think> if your wine is degassed fully. if your wine is completely clear, and is 10percent abv are higher, then there is no reason not to bottle and age.

 

[seth8530]

yes, the key is not to confuse what fermentation and aging are. When I stated bulk storage I was implicitly speaking of againg. One of the major advantages of not bottling as soon as the wine is stable is that you lose the ability to blend or sweeten the wine if need be.

 

[beggarsu]

One of the major advantages of not bottling as soon as the wine is stable is that you lose the ability to blend or sweeten the wine if need be.

That doesn't seem to be an 'advantage' but a decision. Once you stabilize you can either bottler or stabilize and backsweeten. If you backsweeten you wait ten days (as I have seen recommended) to make sure fermentation does not occur , then bottle.

The question is still at what temperature to keep the wine in the carboy from end of week 2 (primary fermentation finished ) until stabilization and bottling time. Which according to many fruit wine recipes cloud be 4, 6 8 12 months etc in the carboy.
Keep at the same temperature as the fomentation temperature?
or lower the temperature somewhat?
or keep at finished wine storage temperatures?

@jamesngalveston Yeah I'm going with that. I'm starting to consider even 3 months too long.
Degassing - yeah it seems perhaps that is a good reason to at least keep the bulk aging in the carboy at the same temp as the fermentation as it is more likely to degas isn't it? - or at least any gas level woudl have accommodated to warmer temperatures - if you age it cold then bottle then if warm up if warm up you might have trouble.

I jury-rigged an electric mixer but lately I'm thinking some kind of vacuum pump is the best way to go - from looking at videos vacuum pumps can check for certain if it's degassed properly.

Maybe even a cheap hand pump....


Edit :Just checked - 7 (one gallon +) jugs of crabapple with balloons at week 8 + at room temp.

Some balloons are still filling up with gas ( I have to squeeze the to force it out the pinhole I made in the balloons. So that means they are still fermenting albeit slowly and probably infinitesimally.

I moved batch II of rhubarb to room temp a last week form cold storage - I'm pretty sure a couple of those balloons are filling /filled - that batch is 3 months + but I had it cold since week 2 - decided probably too cold - it was second thought made me bring it indoors to see if yeast had any life yet in it.


Unless it is just degassing naturally and not a minute slow fermentation?



Happy Thanksgivings Weekend to Canadians!

 

[seth8530]

That doesn't seem to be an 'advantage' but a decision. Once you stabilize you can either bottler or stabilize and backsweeten. If you backsweeten you wait ten days (as I have seen recommended) to make sure fermentation does not occur , then bottle.

The question is still at what temperature to keep the wine in the carboy from end of week 2 (primary fermentation finished ) until stabilization and bottling time. Which according to many fruit wine recipes cloud be 4, 6 8 12 months etc in the carboy.
Keep at the same temperature as the fomentation temperature?
or lower the temperature somewhat?
or keep at finished wine storage temperatures?

@jamesngalveston Yeah I'm going with that. I'm starting to consider even 3 months too long.
Degassing - yeah it seems perhaps that is a good reason to at least keep the bulk aging in the carboy at the same temp as the fermentation as it is more likely to degas isn't it? - or at least any gas level woudl have accommodated to warmer temperatures - if you age it cold then bottle then if warm up if warm up you might have trouble.

I jury-rigged an electric mixer but lately I'm thinking some kind of vacuum pump is the best way to go - from looking at videos vacuum pumps can check for certain if it's degassed properly.

Maybe even a cheap hand pump....


Edit :Just checked - 7 (one gallon +) jugs of crabapple with balloons at week 8 + at room temp.

Some balloons are still filling up with gas ( I have to squeeze the to force it out the pinhole I made in the balloons. So that means they are still fermenting albeit slowly and probably infinitesimally.

I moved batch II of rhubarb to room temp a last week form cold storage - I'm pretty sure a couple of those balloons are filling /filled - that batch is 3 months + but I had it cold since week 2 - decided probably too cold - it was second thought made me bring it indoors to see if yeast had any life yet in it.


Unless it is just degassing naturally and not a minute slow fermentation?



Happy Thanksgivings Weekend to Canadians!

Personally, once the gravity has pretty much stopped moving that is when I would move away from the wine fermentation temperature and bring it to storage temperature.

BTW, the only way you can really tell the difference between whether the wine is degassing or if it is still fermenting is with hydrometer readings. Else wise, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.

 

[beggarsu]

BTW, the only way you can really tell the difference between whether the wine is degassing or if it is still fermenting is with hydrometer readings. Else wise, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.

Perhaps at that level the hydrometer readings would be too minute to tell the difference as well.

Personally, once the gravity has pretty much stopped moving that is when I would move away from the wine fermentation temperature and bring it to storage temperature.

Is this what you actually do? How long will you leave your fruit wines in the carboy before bottling? for the two examples you gave?

ref:

"once the lag phase had passed my hot fermented dragons blood fermented within around 3 days and the cold fermented batch was done in around a week."

 

[seth8530]

Perhaps at that level the hydrometer readings would be too minute to tell the difference as well.






Is this what you actually do? How long will you leave your fruit wines in the carboy before bottling? for the two examples you gave?

ref:

Nah, it is pretty easy to see with a hydrometer if a fermentation is ongoing or not by the gravity change unless you are down to around .990 at which point you pretty much already know the fermentation is done.

For something like dragons blood I will bottle as soon as I have adjusted the sweetness to my desired level, balanced acid if I see it needed and let it clear out from any sugar additions I have made to it. So, for a dragons blood I will likely have it in the bottle after a month.. But only because it is dragons blood and is meant to be drank in haste.

However, for most of my fruit wines I will let them bulk age at least a year. I let my peach wine bulk age for around 15 months before putting it in the bottle. I gave my muscadine wine around a year. I have 12 gallons of mead right now that is coming up on a year bulk aging.

So yes, for me.. The general practice is to wait around a year, adjust as needed. Let the wine settle down after these adjustments and finally bottle once I have a product that I consider fit for drinking and being proud of.

 

[beggarsu]

However, for most of my fruit wines I will let them bulk age at least a year. I let my peach wine bulk age for around 15 months before putting it in the bottle. I gave my muscadine wine around a year. I have 12 gallons of mead right now that is coming up on a year bulk aging.

So for these extended periods do you use an airlock or cap it? Did any ever oxidize and turn sour? How often do you re-rack a 12 or 15 month aging?

 

[seth8530]

I keep mine under airlock and periodically resulfite. As of yet, I have not had a batch go sour or oxidize on me. I typically rack only 2-3 times during the 12-15 month aging process.

 

[beggarsu]

I keep mine under airlock and periodically resulfite. As of yet, I have not had a batch go sour or oxidize on me. I typically rack only 2-3 times during the 12-15 month aging process.

thanks yeah , I think the bisuphite is a good safety measure. I was just reading up on the pros and cons of that.

 

[seth8530]

Yep, its good stuff. Just gotta remember that sulphite does not replace good sanitation or winemaking procedures such as topping off.