Other taking the next step

[Buonissimo]

Looking for some advice...
Just got seriously hooked on winemaking....its a bad addiction...
Bottled my first Kit WE world French Cab...it is delicious and only 3 weeks in bottle...I had to cheat and try early.
Anyway have 5 more high ends in primary--selection and eclipse (with skins) and 4 more in various stages in carboys. (only reds..just got WE sav blanc box starting that tomorrow)
sorry for the long intro....to the point....

Any suggestions on moving to more than kits....i am so impressed with quality so wonder if juice, frozen must, grapes.....make a better wine as it does appear that the cost is much higher. Even if not that much better for the cost , I am drawn to work my way to starting with the grape itself. (love the process as much as the wine) Any thoughts suggestions ideas are much appreciated!!!!!!

 

[ColemanM]

I wish you would have asked this question before starting the other red kits!! Welcome to the forum. I have made many kits, mostly WE and never really "loved" the wine they made. I recently started making wine using frozen grape must, then adding the pressed grapes to the higher end kits. The difference is truly amazing. I have a WE Sangiovese fermented on Cabernet skins. Tastes like a true Toscana! This was the way I went, but others may have different ways. Enjoy the fermentation addiction!!

 

[Buonissimo]

Thank you both for the replies. Much appreciated.

Where do you source the frozen grape must and grapes?

 

[heatherd]

Thank you both for the replies. Much appreciated.

Where do you source the frozen grape must and grapes?

I make both kits and juice/grapes. Depends on what is in season. There isn't any thing wrong with either approach as you end up with wine either way.

You can get frozen juice and frozen must shipped to you from places like juicegrape.com. Note that you will need to purchase all the required chemicals, which are typically included in a kit.

For fresh grapes and juice, you'll have to find a source closer to you.

Heather

 

[richmke]

Google search for frozen grape must. I found a company that stocks in Chicago, and I can pick it up when I am there. If you are lucky, you might be able to find a company that stocks near you. Saves $20 in shipping if you can pick up.

See if you can find a local wine making group. They usually order a truckload of grapes or crushed juice pails in August/September.

 

[Buonissimo]

great replies. thanks to all

 

[ColemanM]

Actually.... Your FIRST next step should be a barrel. In all honesty, my 2013 WE Limited Edition Syrah Cab that spent 9 weeks in a French oak barrel is still a little thin (imagine no barrel aging!!). However, my cellar craft sterling GSM with grape skins (10L kit) has been in the barrel for 3 months now. The mouthfeel is night9 and day. Even though the LE kit was I believe 18 liters including skins the 10L kit has a more rounded fuller mouthfeel with an additional 6 or so weeks in the barrel. I understand all of our suggestions are incredibly expensive, but if you want "store quality" wine, it's unfortunately necessary. Along with Joe's tweaks. good luck

 

[Buonissimo]

Coleman

Glad you mentioned the barrel. I have been rolling that around since I started. Was visiting vadai website looking at smaller barrels. Any suggestions regarding this are much appreciated. I was thinking of 23L and the larger for double batches. Seems more cost effective for the larger sizes. I saw your post about flavors being different the first several batches. Could you comment more on that

 

[ColemanM]

I would actually go for the 20L barrel if you are doing kits. It comes out to be about 5.3 gallons, which after racking wine off sediment from clearing and possibly one more racking before going into the barrel, will leave you with about 3+ bottles for topping off.
Not sure of the comment you are referring to, but I think it was on adding the pressed grapes to the kits. I have a WE eclipse old vine Zin that is about 17 months old that has been in the barrel for about 3 months. To me, it is very one dimensional. Not much varietal distinction. I recently made and OVZin port with fresh grapes and used the pressed grapes in a new WE Eclipse OVZ. The difference is night and day. The new OVZ has varietal taste right up front and has as much body as the OVZ in the barrel, which is actually really good. The pressed skins just seem to ad a "wine grape" flavor that seems to be lacking in the kits I have made. Gives them a more fresh feel and not a reconstituted reduction taste. Just my opinion though. You may find you love the taste of your kits, but I really never got there. I'm not knocking kits though. They really do have a purpose and a place, and unless you're just flush with cash that you can drop $1000 to make a 30 gallon GSM from fresh grapes, they also have an audience.

 

[jsiddall]

I wish you would have asked this question before starting the other red kits!! Welcome to the forum. I have made many kits, mostly WE and never really "loved" the wine they made. I recently started making wine using frozen grape must, then adding the pressed grapes to the higher end kits. The difference is truly amazing. I have a WE Sangiovese fermented on Cabernet skins. Tastes like a true Toscana! This was the way I went, but others may have different ways. Enjoy the fermentation addiction!!

Just so I am clear, did you strain the grapes from the frozen must to separate them before any fermentation? If so, what did you do with the plain juice after you removed the pressed grapes?

 

[ColemanM]

No, I fermented the must, grapes juice and all, to dry, pressed the grapes then took the pressed grapes and started a kit wine and tossed them in. The yeast took off within a few hours and the kit was fermenting away with no extra yeast added. I keep the grape wine and kit wine separate. About 3 1/2 gallons to a pail of frozen must and 6 for the kit.

 

[seth8530]

Honestly, I would move to fresh grapes and or frozen must and juice before you got the barell. Both though would be meaningful improvements to your winemaking process. You could even run some kits through the barell to lower the oak intensity down to a manageable level. However, since doing frozen must/ fresh/frozen juice does not really take any equipment that a kit user should not have (perhaps acid test kits/ PH meter) and the price is not much different from a kit. I do not see any reason why one should not move from kits and go to juice/ frozen must.

Now, the step to fresh grapes is a bit bigger of a step due to the need of a crusher... But one step at a time.

 

[JohnT]

I would also advise taking the jump to fresh grapes. There is an expense of additional equipment, but one that expense is made there is a cost savings to about 3.25 a bottle (bottle and cork included).

 

[ColemanM]

While I would agree with you both, I would say a barrel now would greatly benefit OP's 6 high end kits he has already made. While he ages his high end kits in the barrel (looking like at least 4-8-16-18-18-18 weeks) he has more than enough time to buy frozen musts, unless OK has fresh grapes. By this time the barrel would be neutral and he could closely monitor the grape wine while oaking with cubes or spirals, then rack off oak when perfect and throw in barrel for 3-4 months. During that time, he would realize he needs two more barrels and a few more frozen pails of must and he would be reposting a new "next step" thread. Bam! Everyone is right!

 

[Buonissimo]

Guys

I love it all the advice. My sincere thanks. Plan if for the barrel (or 2) and frozen must. I emailed vadai and Michael Crews at wine grapes direct. No response from Vadai yet (do they answer emails?) Michael recommended the 2012 durrell Syrah. any inputs on that is appreciated.

y'all are awesome!

Christopher

 

[Buonissimo]

OK more questions to the business at hand......The 6 happy carboys awaiting.........crap I want to start drinking them....how does one resist???

Here is the list...looking for any advice to add to there complexity
(all in Carboys Now)
Started 12/25 Eclipse pinot, Sel Brunello, Sel Luna rossa
""1/15 Sel Sangiovese, Sel Vieux Ch Du Roi, Sel Cabernet, Eclipse Lodi OV Zin

Also have a lonely Eclipse Lodi Cabernet still in the box.....resisting until i get some good advice to make this special from start to finish.

BTW. Got a All in one Wine Pump. What a great device......love that thing. Steve is a great help. Big thanks to him

 

[Buonissimo]

as you can see this is likely getting out of hand

 

[zalai]

Looking good , good varietal choices . For long term storage you should top up your carboys .
For example here is a link what other people do .
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/eclipse-italian-barolo-topping-up-48375/

 

[ColemanM]

I can attest to the 2012 Syrah. Fermented the best of my 4 varietals I got from WGD. The driest too .993 super red/purple rich color very good choice. Put those pressed skins in with the Lodi ranch and make it a cab/Syrah.

 

[heatherd]

I would also advise taking the jump to fresh grapes. There is an expense of additional equipment, but one that expense is made there is a cost savings to about 3.25 a bottle (bottle and cork included).

I have found that fresh grapes and fresh juice pails are less expensive than a high-end kit. Pails from Harford Vineyard are 52-60 depending on the varietal. Lugs of grapes are affordable as well. Since its fresh you have to go pick it up, so no shipping cost. Works out to be less expensive than a high end kit. I am limited to what I can find in my area, as well as to what is in season. Harford crushes and destems the grapes for me.

Frozen must is in the lower range of a kit cost, but you get the advantages of making wine directly from grapes, as well as being able to access the must all year long. This can be shipped, and there are a couple of vendors online. I have made a double batch of cab Sauvignon from a fresh juice pail plus frozen must pail and it is quite good already.

You will need additional testing equipment, but it's a good long-term investment anyway.

I keep things simple and fairly cheap, plus I am space-constrained. So the fresh juice + lug of crushed grapes is perfect for me. I can press by hand at that volume. I bulk age in carboys with oak spirals for 5-6 months and then bottle age to a year or more. Works for me!

Heather