Stuck fermentaion, among other things.

[Old Philosopher]

My horror story started by reading "#" instead of "c" in my old recipe book.
(Yes, fool, it said cups not pounds of sugar!)

So, I started out with 2x the sugar in my 2 gal batches of pie cherries and raspberries.
The cherries dropped from SG 1.140 to 1.018 in 11 days with HC1118 yeast, giving me 16.5% ABV. Fine for me, a bit sweet for my wife.

The raspberry is not faring well, hence my plea for advice.
It started out at SG 1.152 :< and dropped to 1.058 in 15 days. (HC1118 again)
There it sat for a week. I finally added some Premier Cuvee and a bit of yeast nutrient. 3 days later it was UP to 1.062 again! I just pulled the bag this evening, and now I'm staring at 2 gal of juice.

I think I made cough syrup instead of wine, even though it's at 12,7% ABV.

I'm open to suggestions, however radical. I can't add water without loosing this rich raspberry flavor. And if I dilute the sweetness, I can't get the flavor back. I've even had a fantasy of adding a gallon of water, and adding unsweetened Kool-Aid raspberry flavor...but there goes the ABV.

Or...does anyone have a secret trick to kick start the fermentation again?

 

[Arne]

How about getting some raspberry juice or the berries themselves. Dilute the must with these. If it doesn't bring the s.g. down enough, add more. Restart the ferment, might have to try adding more juice again to get it to ferment down to where you want it. Might need quite a bit of juice, tho. Good luck with it, Arne.

 

[Old Philosopher]

How about getting some raspberry juice or the berries themselves. Dilute the must with these. If it doesn't bring the s.g. down enough, add more. Restart the ferment, might have to try adding more juice again to get it to ferment down to where you want it. Might need quite a bit of juice, tho. Good luck with it, Arne.

I have about 10 more pounds of raspberries in the freezer, but I'd rather just start another batch with the proper amount of sugar than wast the last of my harvest on a "maybe". I'm hoping to salvage these 2 gallons, though.
The berry flavor is very strong, and I'm contemplating diluting the batch down to a reasonable SG (around 1.01 for our tastes) and then fortifying it with grain alcohol to bring the ABV back up around 12%.
Any thoughts on that approach?

 

[Scooter68]

Don't think you need to go that radical. The raspberry addition should work How many pounds of raspberries did you use and are they red or black raspberries?
The original yeast has probably expired of course. But why add grain alcohol? You should have enough sugar there to feed a restart of fermentation. If you are going to dilute it anyway try adding a fresh batch of yeast and some nutrient. There is enough sugar already once the alcohol level is reduced you should be able to restart the fermentation if you have the right yeast, nutrient, temp, and the acidity in range. Just get dilute enough and make a separate starter for the yeast.

And I like Arne's idea of adding some raspberry juice that will keep the flavor up and not add any undue amount of sugar.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Don't think you need to go that radical. The raspberry addition should work How many pounds of raspberries did you use and are they red or black raspberries?
The original yeast has probably expired of course. But why add grain alcohol? You should have enough sugar there to feed a restart of fermentation. If you are going to dilute it anyway try adding a fresh batch of yeast and some nutrient. There is enough sugar already once the alcohol level is reduced you should be able to restart the fermentation if you have the right yeast, nutrient, temp, and the acidity in range. Just get dilute enough and make a separate starter for the yeast.

And I like Arne's idea of adding some raspberry juice that will keep the flavor up and not add any undue amount of sugar.

Like I said in the OP, 3 days ago I added Premier Cuvee, and nutrient. The SG went from 1.058 to 1.062 in 3 days. Both the Red Star, and the Lavin have an alcohol tolerance of 18%. The batch is under 13%.
I did a yeast starter with the Premier with a 2:1 dilution of the must. It started just fine. There should be more than enough residual sugar to feed the yeast.
I'm mystified. The only thing I haven't done is an acid test. It tastes on the tart side, so the might the acid levels be killing the new (and old) yeast?

 

[Scooter68]

Sounds like the raspberries broke down and released more sugar or somehow the sugar you initially added hadn't completely dissolved ??? The latter is possible given the amount of sugar overdose you stated. A bit odd, but...
For those yeasts to reach 18% they have to have all the right conditions and as you mentioned to much or too little acid could be the issue. I am assuming the temp is in the 65-75 degree range? My list of yeasts show that Premier Curvee yeast can go to 16% but you should be ok still if your calculated 13% is correct. Perhaps divide and conquer? Split your batch and try a different approach to each or wait with the second half while you try something with the first half. At 13% ABV the second half will keep fine until you see if your first half will finish out for you. And I still like the idea of dilution by adding Raspberry juice of course without any additional sugar but perhaps some nutrient.
There are some who don't like to put all nutrient in at once but I don't know how that's worked for you before with that yeast. So if you split and try a dilute and restart perhaps hold off on adding additional nutrient at first. As you said it fired up at first but.
And in my experience I have had a lot of FAST fermentation's where my SG went for 1.112 to 1.014 in 2 days or less and finished out at .990 in less than 5 days. So I'm puzzled as to what actually killed or stalled that fermentation, let alone having your SG increase when it should have been dropping.

Still would like to know how many pounds of berries you used in the raspberry and were they black or red raspberries. ( I ask because my black raspberries (wild ones) are extremely intense with flavor and I used just 4 1/2 lbs /Gallon and have some very tart and very strong wine aging right now. Tastes great but a little tart and definitely strong on flavor

 

[Old Philosopher]

Sounds like the raspberries broke down and released more sugar or somehow the sugar you initially added hadn't completely dissolved ??? The latter is possible given the amount of sugar overdose you stated. A bit odd, but...
For those yeasts to reach 18% they have to have all the right conditions and as you mentioned to much or too little acid could be the issue. I am assuming the temp is in the 65-75 degree range? My list of yeasts show that Premier Curvee yeast can go to 16% but you should be ok still if your calculated 13% is correct. Perhaps divide and conquer? Split your batch and try a different approach to each or wait with the second half while you try something with the first half. At 13% ABV the second half will keep fine until you see if your first half will finish out for you. And I still like the idea of dilution by adding Raspberry juice of course without any additional sugar but perhaps some nutrient.
There are some who don't like to put all nutrient in at once but I don't know how that's worked for you before with that yeast. So if you split and try a dilute and restart perhaps hold off on adding additional nutrient at first. As you said it fired up at first but.
And in my experience I have had a lot of FAST fermentation's where my SG went for 1.112 to 1.014 in 2 days or less and finished out at .990 in less than 5 days. So I'm puzzled as to what actually killed or stalled that fermentation, let alone having your SG increase when it should have been dropping.

Still would like to know how many pounds of berries you used in the raspberry and were they black or red raspberries. ( I ask because my black raspberries (wild ones) are extremely intense with flavor and I used just 4 1/2 lbs /Gallon and have some very tart and very strong wine aging right now. Tastes great but a little tart and definitely strong on flavor

I thought about the temperature since weather has been hot, but the must of both the cherry and raspberry were never over 80 F.
I'm using domestic red raspberries. It's a mixed patch, so I can't tell you a specific variety. I started out with 8 lbs of berries and added 1 gal of water. When I pulled the bag I ended up with just under 2 gal of juice, and about 3 lbs of must.
The increase in apparent SG could be entirely due to temperature. Shame on me, but I haven't been taking readings at the same time each time. I need to crunch the numbers. My hydrometer is calibrated for 60F.
So...without actually knowing the temperature of the liquid, and just going by ambient temp in the room, let's say it was at ~77F. That would mean (according to the hydrometer's mfg cheat sheet) that the actual SG was 1.060 when last read (1.062-.002). Even a 20F degree difference in actual temp vs. hydrometer calibration would not throw it off too much.
===============================================
Later: Okay, let's end this drama. I just had my wife taste this super-sweet, super-flavorful stuff, and she says, "Humm...We can live with that."

So I'm off to rack it into two 1 gallon jugs, add a bit of sorbate, and pray to Dionysus.

Thanks for all the suggestions, gang!

 

[richmke]

How many pounds of Raspberries did you start with?
How many pounds/cups of Sugar did you add?

I have about 10 more pounds of raspberries in the freezer, but I'd rather just start another batch with the proper amount of sugar than wast the last of my harvest on a "maybe".

It is not a "maybe". If you dilute with more Raspberries (assuming you have enough), then it should be fine.

If you started with 10# of raspberries and added twice as much sugar as you should have, then adding another 10# of raspberries should fix the problem (correct raspberries to sugar ratio). If you started with 50# of raspberries, the you may not have enough raspberries to dilute.

Another option:

You could dilute with unsweetened undiluted raspberry juice. Even if it has "sorbate" in it. The sorbate stops yeast reproduction, but you should have more than enough yeast. If you dilute to with raspberry juice to a tolerable alcohol level for the yeast, hopefully the yeast start munching again. Maybe test with a small batch first. If it works, then dilute and recombine.

 

[Old Philosopher]

.... If you dilute to with raspberry juice to a tolerable alcohol level for the yeast, hopefully the yeast start munching again. ....

This is what mystified me. The ABV was 12.7%. The HC1118 has a tolerance of 18%. It was still sweet, hence plenty of sugar for the yeast to feed. The little yeast varmints just went on vacation.

 

[richmke]

12% ABV is by the Standard formula. 15% ABV by the alternate formula. It could be the combination of high alcohol and high sugar levels that the yeast does not like. Something about osmotic pressure, and can't get enough water.

FYI: 18% alcohol (for EC 1118) is under ideal conditions. 15% under most conditions. I couldn't find HC 1118

 

[Old Philosopher]

12% ABV is by the Standard formula. 15% ABV by the alternate formula. It could be the combination of high alcohol and high sugar levels that the yeast does not like. Something about osmotic pressure, and can't get enough water.

FYI: 18% alcohol (for EC 1118) is under ideal conditions. 15% under most conditions. I couldn't find HC 1118

I stand corrected. CRS... Lalvin EC1118 is what I stared in both batches.
I haven't racked it yet tonight, so I'll see how much dead yeast is evident when I do.

 

[Scooter68]

Yeah varieties of red or black unless it's mixed red and black batch, shouldn't be a problem. I was asking because from my experience wild black raspberries have plenty of flavor if you started with say 4-5 pounds per gallon - dilution from 2 gallons to 3 might not be an issue. Red Raspberries I don't know as far as strength of flavor.

Bottom line if da wife likes it... job well done! You have a dessert wine!

 

[Old Philosopher]

Yeah varieties of red or black unless it's mixed red and black batch, shouldn't be a problem. I was asking because from my experience wild black raspberries have plenty of flavor if you started with say 4-5 pounds per gallon - dilution from 2 gallons to 3 might not be an issue. Red Raspberries I don't know as far as strength of flavor.

Bottom line if da wife likes it... job well done! You have a dessert wine!

If that's a win, I'll take it!

 

[richmke]

I haven't racked it yet tonight, so I'll see how much dead yeast is evident when I do.

Don't rack until it is close to done fermenting. You want the yeast.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Don't rack until it is close to done fermenting. You want the yeast.

It quit fermenting a week ago. Hence the title of this thread.

 

[Scooter68]

Dessert Wines are great, After a meal watching a movie, reading, surfing the net etc. A little goes a long way with them especially if you get a High ABV with a sweet wine - sneaks up on you.

 

[richmke]

It quit fermenting a week ago. Hence the title of this thread.

Yes, but you asked what you could do. One think you might be able to do is dilute it with more raspberries and restart the fermentation.