SECONDARY ODD SEPERATION?

[Applewineguy]

I use (OG-FG)/7.36, and for the figures listed in my last post,16.7% is a correct result. Note that you listed your OG as 1.13 and I used that value, whereas the value in the figure you posted says the OG is 1.113. For that value, the current ABV is 14.4%.

The ABV calculation is an approximation, and for table wine there are at least 3 formulas I know of, all of which produce slightly different results. I chose the above for reasons I don't recall, and stick with it so I'm internally consistent.

I suggest you always list SG values with 3 digits to the right of the decimal as it avoids confusion and typos. We get a lot of those.

K1-V1116 has a published ABV tolerance of 18%, so that is not likely the problem.

At this time the wine is not done fermenting. Doing anything now is a waste of effort, and is more likely to be detrimental than beneficial. Patience is your friend.

Note that every fining agent has side effects, and unless you have a specific reason to use more than one, don't.

Ah okay yes there's the issue. It is 1.113 so yes 14% roughly. My apologies lol.

The acid and ph weren't conducive to this wine fermenting nicely and as it was my first batch in 10 years I definitely didn't follow my usual process which created a learning experience for sure haha.

I usually just use sparkalloid as I've had really great results with it and never had an issue with flavors or off side affects but was reading about bentonite and how they can work nicely hand in hand as one uses negative charge and the other positive. I'll stick with the old sparky though as I known it works and have had nice success with everytime I've used it.

 

[winemaker81]

What are the current acid and pH?

 

[Applewineguy]

What are the current acid and pH?

I haven't checked current to date but during fermentation it was as follows:
pH 2.86 Tested with Apera instruments
Acid 0.8% or 8g/l

I imagine now things are even more out of wack with fermentation being basically done.

 

[winemaker81]

I haven't checked current to date but during fermentation it was as follows:
pH 2.86 Tested with Apera instruments
Acid 0.8% or 8g/l

I imagine now things are even more out of wack with fermentation being basically done.

I seem to recall you mentioned the pH in a different thread. Yeah, that's low, but just barely as the bottom for yeast is typically stated at 2.9.

Ya know how a watched pot never boils? Ditto on fermentation. That's why I said to ignore the wine for a few weeks.

Instead of messing with acid during fermentation, which often goes awry, give it 2 weeks. If the SG hasn't dropped, rack it. Make an overnight starter with EC-1118 and add that. Give it 2 weeks and check SG.

IMO the current focus is getting the wine to ferment out. Once that's done and the wine has bulk aged 3 months, then taste the wine. If it tastes acidic, then we address that.

Don't worry about fining agents at this time. Until fermentation completes the yeast is producing new solids so fining the wine is a waste of effort.

Note on bentonite -- kits often include bentonite which is added during reconstitution. Bentonite eliminates protein haze (reputed to be a problem in early kits) and when added pre-fermentation makes the wine clear faster -- which helps achieve the kit wine 4 to 8 week cycle. That's the only fining agent I'd add pre-ferment, and there are none I'd add during ferment.

I've use a lot of different fining agents, but am currently using them only if the wine doesn't clear with time.

 

[Applewineguy]

I seem to recall you mentioned the pH in a different thread. Yeah, that's low, but just barely as the bottom for yeast is typically stated at 2.9.

Ya know how a watched pot never boils? Ditto on fermentation. That's why I said to ignore the wine for a few weeks.

Instead of messing with acid during fermentation, which often goes awry, give it 2 weeks. If the SG hasn't dropped, rack it. Make an overnight starter with EC-1118 and add that. Give it 2 weeks and check SG.

IMO the current focus is getting the wine to ferment out. Once that's done and the wine has bulk aged 3 months, then taste the wine. If it tastes acidic, then we address that.

Don't worry about fining agents at this time. Until fermentation completes the yeast is producing new solids so fining the wine is a waste of effort.

Note on bentonite -- kits often include bentonite which is added during reconstitution. Bentonite eliminates protein haze (reputed to be a problem in early kits) and when added pre-fermentation makes the wine clear faster -- which helps achieve the kit wine 4 to 8 week cycle. That's the only fining agent I'd add pre-ferment, and there are none I'd add during ferment.

I've use a lot of different fining agents, but am currently using them only if the wine doesn't clear with time.

If it doesn't ferment dry, I'm okay with that. I'll have to back sweeten it anyways so having some residual sugar isn't bad imo. It's reached my target ABV anyways.

I've already had to add 2 packs of yeast to this batch. 1 for initial inoculation and then a second starter made because it stalled right away. I'd rather not add another if I don't have to.

Frankly I think I messed this one up. I had way too much water and it just tastes flat atm. I taste during the entire process because it gives me an idea of how it will come along. Some don't buy into it but I can get a real good idea for most times when I taste through the process. Unless oaking because ya don't taste for a minimum of 3 months after racked off oak chips. Don't ask. Hahaa.

My current mead on the go made with tea bags and honey I've tasted through the entire ferment and it's been amazing all the way through.

This raspberry though just has nothing. Maybe back sweetening will bring out the raspberry flavor but I have deep concerns that it will be a flat and severely watered down wine that will disappoint in every single way possible.

18lbs of raspberries with 15lbs honey and 6kg of sugar to bring it to proper starting SG. I have almost 10 gallons in carboys right now. Which equates to barely if even 2lbs of raspberries per gallon. To me that is not enough.

 

[winemaker81]

On the plus side, you're in a no-lose situation. There's nothing that can make things worse.

I say that tongue-in-cheek, but it's true. So let's switch modes. You have nothing to lose by ignoring the wine, so go with my previous advice, excepting skip adding a new starter. Let's see what happens in 2 weeks.

@Shurt1073, what is that extract brand you used? That may help in this case to recover the wine into something drinkable.

Scott has flavored wines with an extract that enhanced flavor. This may be one where a party wine can be created. No point in giving up now!

 

[Rice_Guy]

Raspberry is mainly citric
Apple is mainly malic
There is NO tartaric

Cold crash, to speed clearing?

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

What’s the hurry. It looks so much better than the initial picture. There aren’t really that much lees from initial racking into secondary. I’m more concerned about headspace. I would siphon that gallon jug into one of those larger ones to cut down headspace and let it sit for a couple more weeks. It is amazing how well wines will clear on their own with time. Don’t be in a hurry to put clearing agents in it.

 

[Applewineguy]

What’s the hurry. It looks so much better than the initial picture. There aren’t really that much lees from initial racking into secondary. I’m more concerned about headspace. I would siphon that gallon jug into one of those larger ones to cut down headspace and let it sit for a couple more weeks. It is amazing how well wines will clear on their own with time. Don’t be in a hurry to put clearing agents in it.

Man there is so much co2 in this thing I assure you the head space is the LAST of my issue . Trust me, I'm aware of oxidation etc. There is 0 concern here on my end. My next racking I will consolidate the carboys and have a half gallon jug waiting.

Raspberry is mainly citric
Apple is mainly malic
There is NO tartaric

Cold crash, to speed clearing?

My Tartaric testing kit showed a high acid count as per my other posts so idk? However I tested pH tonight during my SG check and found my pH had gone up to a 3.11

On the plus side, you're in a no-lose situation. There's nothing that can make things worse.

I say that tongue-in-cheek, but it's true. So let's switch modes. You have nothing to lose by ignoring the wine, so go with my previous advice, excepting skip adding a new starter. Let's see what happens in 2 weeks.

@Shurt1073, what is that extract brand you used? That may help in this case to recover the wine into something drinkable.

Scott has flavored wines with an extract that enhanced flavor. This may be one where a party wine can be created. No point in giving up now!

So pulled sample tonight and it's down to 1.002 so it is still fermenting!! I was sure she was done. Apparently not. So with a tiny left of my sample I tried a simple experiment. I added some honey to sweeten it back a little in a small cup and tasted it. Well.... this might not be a lost cause and I'm actually quite happy with it even while still fermenting so if more flavors come out during the aging, we will be in top shape!!

 

[Applewineguy]

What’s the hurry. It looks so much better than the initial picture. There aren’t really that much lees from initial racking into secondary. I’m more concerned about headspace. I would siphon that gallon jug into one of those larger ones to cut down headspace and let it sit for a couple more weeks. It is amazing how well wines will clear on their own with time. Don’t be in a hurry to put clearing agents in it.

We are coming to up an inch of lees now.
3 gal and 6 gal carboys shown in photo. 1 gal has about 3/4" of settling on the bottom. Roughly 2 more weeks and will rack again and consolidate depending on what my gut tells me to do. It's still fermenting so will let it finish that and stabilize on its own before racking again. To likely get rid of the gallon jug I imagine.

 

[Applewineguy]

On the plus side, you're in a no-lose situation. There's nothing that can make things worse.

I say that tongue-in-cheek, but it's true. So let's switch modes. You have nothing to lose by ignoring the wine, so go with my previous advice, excepting skip adding a new starter. Let's see what happens in 2 weeks.

@Shurt1073, what is that extract brand you used? That may help in this case to recover the wine into something drinkable.

Scott has flavored wines with an extract that enhanced flavor. This may be one where a party wine can be created. No point in giving up now!

I checked the SG of this stuff again and it's made its way from 1.004 down to 1.002 in the last 4 days. The sediment building up is quite thick and I don't want to get any off flavors from leaving it on the lees to long. Do you think I should rack it or wait the 2 weeks you suggested still? In my 6 gal carboy I have over an inch of sediment in the bottom?

 

[winemaker81]

I checked the SG of this stuff again and it's made its way from 1.004 down to 1.002 in the last 4 days. The sediment building up is quite thick and I don't want to get any off flavors from leaving it on the lees to long. Do you think I should rack it or wait the 2 weeks you suggested still? In my 6 gal carboy I have over an inch of sediment in the bottom?

The initial concern was getting the wine to complete fermentation. Given the progress over the last few days, that no longer appears to be a concern. Progress is not quick, but there is steady progress.

I'd give it at least another week before racking, but if it concerns you that much, rack it.

Note that some fruit wines will fill 1/4 of the container with gross lees. The amount of lees is not significant, other than how it affects container management, e.g., having enough wine to top up the containers, post-fermentation.

Before your rack, you may want to read this, as I documented what I do to reduce wine loss during racking.

 

[Applewineguy]

The initial concern was getting the wine to complete fermentation. Given the progress over the last few days, that no longer appears to be a concern. Progress is not quick, but there is steady progress.

I'd give it at least another week before racking, but if it concerns you that much, rack it.

Note that some fruit wines will fill 1/4 of the container with gross lees. The amount of lees is not significant, other than how it affects container management, e.g., having enough wine to top up the containers, post-fermentation.

Before your rack, you may want to read this, as I documented what I do to reduce wine loss during racking.

I wouldn't be worried normally but it is starting to compact in layers and get dense. My only concern is off flavors being introduced. I've never dealt with this much sediment so quickly but I blame the raspberries and despite being in a fine mesh bag, I still got a lot of "pulp" see attached photo for density and thickness. There's a good 1- 1.5 inches in the 6 gallon carboy and a solid inch in the 3 gallon. 3/4" in the 1 gal. You mention racking when compact sediment is achieved in the link you provided.

 

[winemaker81]

You mention racking when compact sediment is achieved in the link you provided.

That's post-fermentation.

It will give you peace if mind to rack now, so go ahead

 

[Rice_Guy]

My only concern is off flavors being introduced.

Flavor generation takes time.

What I see in the photos is that early on you had enough CO2 release to keep large particles suspended. Yesterday the CO2 was slow enough to let particles settle. You were anaerobic in both photos. Note the protective oxidation effect is from yeast cells which are significantly smaller and take time to settle out.

 

[Applewineguy]

That's post-fermentation.

It will give you peace if mind to rack now, so go ahead

On a seperate note, with my other 1 gal batch it's done fermenting and time to rack but worry about air space. If I top it up, I'll dilute my alcohol level. How might I calculate how much I'll affect it if I top off with some water when the SG is already below 0 or can I?

 

[Applewineguy]

Flavor generation takes time.

What I see in the photos is that early on you had enough CO2 release to keep large particles suspended. Yesterday the CO2 was slow enough to let particles settle. You were anaerobic in both photos. Note the protective oxidation effect is from yeast cells which are significantly smaller and take time to settle out.

The large particles are from fruit. Which can rot. That is where the off flavors can come from. I don't believe it takes long for that to occur?

 

[winemaker81]

On a seperate note, with my other 1 gal batch it's done fermenting and time to rack but worry about air space. If I top it up, I'll dilute my alcohol level. How might I calculate how much I'll affect it if I top off with some water when the SG is already below 0 or can I?

Never top with water unless you have absolutely no other choice -- as you noted it dilutes the wine.

For what you have fit to the containers as much as possible, and use a neutral tasting white wine for topup.

The large particles are from fruit. Which can rot. That is where the off flavors can come from. I don't believe it takes long for that to occur?

In Burgundy, Extended Maceration (EM) lasts as long as 90 days. Folks on this forum have done EM with kits + skin packs up to 6 weeks. A lot of older wisdom isn't quite as accurate as believed.

 

[sour_grapes]

How might I calculate how much I'll affect it if I top off with some water when the SG is already below 0 or can I?

With a Pearson square, or use FermCalc.

 

[Applewineguy]

Never top with water unless you have absolutely no other choice -- as you noted it dilutes the wine.

For what you have fit to the containers as much as possible, and use a neutral tasting white wine for topup.


In Burgundy, Extended Maceration (EM) lasts as long as 90 days. Folks on this forum have done EM with kits + skin packs up to 6 weeks. A lot of older wisdom isn't quite as accurate as believed.

I'd have no idea what white wine to use and would rather not alter my composition with some generic box store wine