Seal bottle tops with wax ??

[Twintrades]

Is it ok to seal your wine bottles with wax ? Or should the cork be exposed to the air for any reason ?

Only asking beacuse i keep bees and have lotsa wax.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I personally wax just the very top 1/4'' of the top of the cork , only because I do use synthetics corks and had a bad year where my corker left grooves in my cork and spoiled alot of wine. Since I have been using bottle wax - I have wine over 7 years old with no issues. I know that someone is going to mention that the wine needs to breathe and all , but it does work for me

thanks steve

 

[zack67360]

I haul my wine to the cellar which isn't the cleanest of environments, so wax my bottle tops to keep dust, etc. from getting on the lip of the bottles, that way when pouring there is no contamination.

 

[ckassotis]

Will impact whites the least. I wouldn't do it on reds that you intend to age, since as vacuumpumpman noted, you cannot age through a wax seal. So I'd imagine you're in essence creating a closure not unlike the screw-top; completely anaerobic.

 

[Deezil]

From my understanding, wax is used to stop the wine's aging - sort of like a final step.

Say you have 5 gallons of XYZ wine & you bottled it. Open the first bottle, and its better than when bulk aging.. Couple months later, the 2nd bottle is even better.. Couple weeks later, open a 3rd bottle (or whichever number at this point ) & it isnt much different than the last one you reviewed - wax the rest of the bottles.

At this point you've created a closed environment & it should basically stop the wine from changing too much more - keeping it locked in that moment in time.

Just my general understanding of it..

 

[zack67360]

I use the synthetic corks, nomacorc. Do these allow the wine to breathe as well? I have also been toying with the idea of putting my wine in the refrigerator after bottling for 21 days to speed up aging, then to the cellar. I would put the carboy in, but not enough room for height, so must do it after bottling. Thoughts on this idea?
z

 

[Twintrades]

Ok that solved it thanks deezil.

 

[robie]

Will impact whites the least. I wouldn't do it on reds that you intend to age, since as vacuumpumpman noted, you cannot age through a wax seal. So I'd imagine you're in essence creating a closure not unlike the screw-top; completely anaerobic.

There is a lot of argument concerning whether or not a high quality cork actually does breath. I think the latest thought is that it really doesn't, at least not enough to make any significant difference over a 25 year period of time.

I know, I know, one can find lots of data that support both arguments.

Just remember that the 50 to 250 year old Bordeaux wines, which are still around, were all always corked and waxed.

 

[robie]

I use the synthetic corks, nomacorc. Do these allow the wine to breathe as well? I have also been toying with the idea of putting my wine in the refrigerator after bottling for 21 days to speed up aging, then to the cellar. I would put the carboy in, but not enough room for height, so must do it after bottling. Thoughts on this idea?
z

Putting the wine in the frig for 21 days will actually slow down the aging process. There is a lot of research on the idea that the cooler the temperature at which it is stored, the slower the wine will age. That's why wine stored at higher temperatures (example: 80F) will not last as long as wine stored at or below 60F.

One can drink the wine that is stored at higher temperatures quicker, but the wine will not develop as well as it will at lower temperatures

Freezing the wine is another matter. One can freeze the wine (in an appropriate container, which will not burst) for a couple of weeks and get a very good idea what the wine will taste like had it been fully aged. Problem is, freezing the wine tends to erase the middle flavors, so it won't actually end up as good as it would if properly aged.

 

[Chiumanfu]

Wow, does freezing really work? I will have to try that.

 

[Twintrades]

For new wine makers the wait will KILL ME !

Oh well thats prolly why the wine gods made apfelwien and skeeter pee
Just racked some strawberry now thats some jet fuel. Cant wait for it to clear.

 

[ckassotis]

There is a lot of argument concerning whether or not a high quality cork actually does breath. I think the latest thought is that it really doesn't, at least not enough to make any significant difference over a 25 year period of time.

I know, I know, one can find lots of data that support both arguments.

Just remember that the 50 to 250 year old Bordeaux wines, which are still around, were all always corked and waxed.

Well, a few things there. There is some discussion about that, but I feel as if at least from my reading, the consensus is the opposite. If a cork created a completely solid seal, we would see identical aging between wines corked and those screw-capped, as all agree that creates a completely airtight closure.

As for 50 year old Bordeaux wines, certainly these are not all waxed. Going back 250 years, that was much the case, but wines back then were very much built and bottled for long term storage as opposed to today, where we have a shifting trend towards wines that taste good NOW - or at least in a relatively short period of time as opposed to the longer lengths we used to see.

As for the 250 year old bottles, have you read the book on the Jefferson bottles? The consensus seems to be that Rodenstock was a complete fake, and conned people into thinking those bottles were real when they were not. In reality, I doubt we have any bottles left that old. There were quite a few inconsistencies with his sales that suggest he was a master manipulator rather than the master collector that he made himself out to be. And sadly, the vast majority of current tasting notes on those rare wines could potentially all be tainted by his presence and influence on these dramatic verticals and parties he took part in for so many years. Very interesting story.

 

[robie]

You are right, screw-capped and corks do not age the same. That's because in most cases, corks will fail before the newer, high-tech screw caps. research can be fickled. It is sort of like the poor little chicken egg. One time it is a villain, next time it is being praised.

Your personal opinion of the person in that book is strictly your own and not that of this forum.

 

[ckassotis]

Well of course it isn't the opinion of the forum. If this wasn't for our personal thoughts on wine-related topics though, we wouldn't have much discussion. I don't think I let my personal thoughts on the matter seep too much into what I wrote, but perhaps I did regardless. I meant to talk mostly about the consensus that is he was indeed a fraud, not that I personally felt he was.

There is also not a single lawsuit filed against Rodenstock that he has won. Every single case filed against him either found against him or was settled out of court. This included the Hague's indictment of him, a pretty serious charge. The Koch's have had a lawsuit going with him for quite a few years now, and as I looked for an update just now, it seems that a defacto judgement was made against him, as he refuses to participate in the trial. One of the most amusing points of contention involves not the Jefferson bottles, but imperials of Petrus that he claimed to have, and sold. It's funny that Petrus has no record of actually producing imperials for the years in question.

As for the libel suit, this didn't actually include Rodenstock. He has not won any court cases at all. The libel suit was brought by Broadbent, the Christie's auctioneer, of esteemed reputation, who felt his reputation was called into question throughout the book. I think he rightly won his suit due to the fact that the book pretty much skirts directly claiming that he colluded with Rodenstock, but certainly implies it. However, there just isn't any evidence of that at all. Frankly, the impression I got was that he was rightfully impressed with Rodenstock, as was everyone around that time, and got deeper in and closer to him over time. Having shared, rated, and reported on large numbers of bottles that Rodenstock shared with him, the whole situation is (I'm sure) largely embarrassing for him. The removal of sale of this book had nothing to do with Rodenstock though, solely this libel suit by Broadbent.

 

[ckassotis]

But getting back to the original discussion, on aging.

I'm not sure I completely agree on the aging of corks vs screw-caps. Even short term, you see different patterns between these two closures. It can't all be connected to corks failing, as we know that they can successfully last a good 50 years at least, depending on the quality. Many of the premiere wine houses now have recorking events where they offer recorking services for aged bottles. The articles I have read on these suggest that they frequently encounter ~50 year old bottles that while the cork has begun to fail, the wine is still safe and sound inside. They typically remove the cork, taste, top up with recent vintage, and recork.

But even short-term, I think we see variation between them, which I would ponder can't be explained by corks failing that soon. There are certainly a lot of conflicting reports and studies though, so I suppose no one truly knows the answer to this!

 

[AJ-123]

There is a four-five year study at UC Davis (and I think other funded research in Europe) that examined the question of oxygen and closures quite closely. If someone can get a copy of that, it would be great. It was finished in December 2011.

Apparently all corks and other closures (incl screwtop) do breathe a tiny bit. Corks have a wide range of breathing (oxygen transfer rates). I think the study found that there was also wide range of oxygen getting into the wine on the same bottling line! Also the study found a wide range of oxygen getting into the aging from the air at the head of the bottle when corked (I'm presuming due to variability in the cc's of air at bottling). The oxygen transfer rate of the cork is only the third and one small little component. Nomacorc funded this research and said "hey, we can make a cork with any oxygen transfer rate you want, but what is ideal?" Too inert and you run reduction risk. Too much oxygen transfer rate and you run oxidation risk. The result is that Nomacorc is out with a line of artificial corks that have a selectible oxygen transfer rate (Nomacorc Select Series; Select 700, Select 500, Select 300, and Select 100). The Select 100 is for all practical purposes, inert -- like sealing with wax I would guess.

I'm not too clear on what the reduction risk is if you have a completely inert seal, but I sure know what the oxidation risk is, so I'd be inclined to go toward an inert seal. If you really want oxygen in a long long term aging bottle, why not just open and reseal it or let in a little air every five years?

I'm inclined to try and make an inert seal. You get a lot of aging from the O2 which is in the wine and the O2 which is in the head air -- my guess is that that might take you through many years of aging with a big red before it stops aging without any oxygen transfer through the closure.

If someone can explain reduction risk, I'd be very interested.

AJ

 

[AJ-123]

There is a four-five year study at UC Davis (and I think other funded research in Europe) that examined the question of oxygen and closures quite closely. If someone can get a copy of that, it would be great. It was finished in December 2011.

Apparently all corks and other closures (incl screwtop) do breathe a tiny bit. Corks have a wide range of breathing (oxygen transfer rates). I think the study found that there was also wide range of oxygen getting into the wine on the same bottling line! Also the study found a wide range of oxygen getting into the aging from the air at the head of the bottle when corked (I'm presuming due to variability in the cc's of air at bottling). The oxygen transfer rate of the cork is only the third and one small little component. Nomacorc funded this research and said "hey, we can make a cork with any oxygen transfer rate you want, but what is ideal?" Too inert and you run reduction risk. Too much oxygen transfer rate and you run oxidation risk. The result is that Nomacorc is out with a line of artificial corks that have a selectible oxygen transfer rate (Nomacorc Select Series; Select 700, Select 500, Select 300, and Select 100). The Select 100 is for all practical purposes, inert -- like sealing with wax I would guess.

I'm not too clear on what the reduction risk is if you have a completely inert seal, but I sure know what the oxidation risk is, so I'd be inclined to go toward an inert seal. If you really want oxygen in a long long term aging bottle, why not just open and reseal it or let in a little air every five years?

I'm inclined to try and make an inert seal. You get a lot of aging from the O2 which is in the wine and the O2 which is in the head air -- my guess is that that might take you through many years of aging with a big red before it stops aging without any oxygen transfer through the closure.

If someone can explain reduction risk, I'd be very interested.

AJ

OH, FYI, I forgot to mention that Nomacorc is coming out with some very expensive (industrial level) measuring equipment so you can see exactly how much oxygen is in your wine, in the air at top of bottle, and in the bottle! So you can then use this in choosing the optimum oxygen transfer rate corc. A few wineries in the U.S. and a few in Bordeaux have opted for this.

Also FYI, these new artificial corks are apparently much better quality than their older ones which are the ones available at our supply places. I'm guessing they will be much more expensive too.

AJ

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

Getting back to the topic of " Seal bottle tops with wax ??".


If you are going to/ want to seal with wax. You can use cheese wax insted of regular wine wax. Pro's and Con's... Pro- cheaper than wine wax, works just a well, melts at lower temp. You can use it for cheese too.

cons- melts at lower temps, may be a bit tacky at room to warm temps but who stores there wine at room temps?

 

[JohnT]

There is a lot of argument concerning whether or not a high quality cork actually does breath. I think the latest thought is that it really doesn't, at least not enough to make any significant difference over a 25 year period of time.

I know, I know, one can find lots of data that support both arguments.

Just remember that the 50 to 250 year old Bordeaux wines, which are still around, were all always corked and waxed.

My experience and research proves otherwise. The fact that micro-oxydation occurs is very apparent for wineries that went to screw caps expecting the wine to mature as usual. It, in fact, did not. It is a fact that oxygen does permeate natural cork.

 

[ibglowin]

Hogue Cellars in WA State recently went to all screw cap. Last year they published over 10 years worth of data they had on aging (cork vs screw cap). The first screw caps made did not allow any oxygen transfer. The ones made today actually can be tailor made to allow a small bit of oxygen transfer just like a cork or sealed completely for something you don't want to let O2 in like some white wines.

All the info you could ever want to read about is here:

Hogue Screw Cap Study

As for corks allowing O2 in that debate is still going on today. Last article I read was that cork actually doesn't breath but O2 does get into the wine from O2 that is "trapped" in the cork itself and works its way out over years and years.