Put too much sulfite Italian juice

Discussion in 'General Wine Making Forum' started by Jeff Sparagana, Oct 9, 2019.

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  1. Oct 9, 2019 #1

    Jeff Sparagana

    Jeff Sparagana

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    I started 102 gallons of Italian juice - Verdichhio today. I have 60 gallons of the juice in an 80 gallon flex tank and 42 gallons of the juice in a 50 gallon flex tank.

    Started making wine in 2006 we have 4 families involved. When we make wine it usually is a white and a red 100+ gallons of each.

    I have not made wine since 2016 and I think I may have over sulfites the juice. I put in 1/2 teaspoon of Potassium metabisulfite per gallon instead of per 5 gallons. Will the fermentation start or is it a loss? I went through the yeast hydration process this morning about 10 am. Started with Go ferm, then the Yeast proffing , added juice to the mixture and then in the tanks. Will use Fermaid O at the beginning of fermentation.

    I greatly appreciate any suggestions. I would prefer not to lose this batch.

    Jeff Sparagana
     

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  2. Oct 9, 2019 #2

    Ajmassa

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    Nobody’s losing any juice! That sugar will still be there when ready. But man- that’s a hella lot of sulphite pre fermentation. I don’t use ANY on juice.

    You took the dosage for aging (which is more then the pre-ferment dose)- then doubled it from 1/4tsp to 1/2tsp- then multiplied x5. !

    If mine I’d give it 48hrs then reassess. Don’t seal it in the meantime. After a couple days to confirm no activity then mix it up real good. Real rough. Few times a day for a few days. Get some o2 in there. Bind up that so2 ppm. (Don’t worry about it spoiling. It won’t. You made sure of that!)
    Then when inoculating yeast again use a workhorse yeast and keep temps at room temp or higher.
    2 days to confirm no activity. Then another few days mixing letting so2 come down. With temps up it may even start fermenting it it’s own
     
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  3. Oct 9, 2019 #3

    stickman

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    Wow, 225 ppm free is a lot of sulfite, it should eventually ferment....
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  4. Oct 9, 2019 #4

    Jeff Sparagana

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    So no stirring tonight? I did stir once already. This is quite a dumb move for an experienced and award winning wine maker. Oh well, I just hope to save it.

    We have 49 lugs of Petit sirah grapes coming in few weeks. More to come.

    Thanks for your suggestions.
    Jeff Sparagana
     
  5. Oct 9, 2019 #5

    Jeff Sparagana

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    I used Q23 yeast, Ajmassa do you suggest something else?

    Jeff
     
  6. Oct 9, 2019 #6

    Jeff Sparagana

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    Sorry QA23.
     
  7. Oct 10, 2019 #7

    Johnd

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    I’d put some hydrogen peroxide in there to neutralize the sulfite in moments, add yeast, kick back and watch the show......
     
  8. Oct 10, 2019 #8

    Ajmassa

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    Yes! I always forget about the peroxide move.
    That will definitely help remove so2 to a workable level.
    I guess what you’d wanna do is check specifically for the so2ppm tolerance levels of different yeasts. There’s a couple workhorses out there with high tolerances like EC-1118 and Avante Renaissance.
    No matter what you do tho—- even if it’s nothing at all— eventually that sucker will be able to ferment
     
  9. Oct 10, 2019 #9

    Johnd

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    That’s why you pay me the big bucks.......
     
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  10. Oct 10, 2019 #10

    Jeff Sparagana

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    How much peroxide would you suggest as I have a tank holding 60 gallons and one holding 42?
     
  11. Oct 10, 2019 #11

    Johnd

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    I've never had to do this and have only read about it, so don't have any experience to share with you about how much to use. Did a little research on topic and looked back over the thread and the quantity of sulfite you have on board, it's really high. Some of the literature that was found indicated the the peroxide was good for smaller quantities of sulfite, and there are some by products of the reaction that can affect the taste of the wine if you try to do too much. You shouldn't count on the peroxide application to solve your problem entirely, there seems to be some risk with it. Not being one to give up very easily would cause me to try to do something, this is what you could consider trying:

    1. Do a test to see what your free sulfite levels are, you need to know where you are starting from
    2. Splash rack the wine out of the tanks into some other vessel, at those elevated levels, you can splash rack into open containers / fermenters without much fear of oxidation, then splash rack back into your tanks
    3. Wait a while and do another sulfite test to see what effect the splash racking had on them and record it
    4. Now you have an idea of how much sulfite you can dissipate with a splash racking
    5. Put a small amount (relative to the total volume of juice) of hydrogen peroxide in one of the tanks, like maybe 25 ml in the smaller tank, and measure the sulfite levels to see what effect it has on the levels
    6. Figure out some mixture of peroxide reduction and splash racking reduction, that together, can get you down to a workable level

    I agree with @stickman , that with enough time, the levels can get down to manageable ones. If you can very judiciously use the peroxide to remove some of the sulfite, and use splash racking to speed the natural dissipation time up a bit, that seems worth a try. Good luck!!
     
  12. Oct 10, 2019 #12

    Jeff Sparagana

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    Thanks. Started splash racking before I saw this. Will check the SO2 level.

    Just pumped it out of the 80 gallon tank and then pumped it back in. Doing the same with the 42 gallon next. Lots of splashing should help.

    Going to get EC 1118 yeast as it has a high tolerance to SO2. Who know maybe the fermentation will start in its own we will see.

    Jeff
     
  13. Oct 10, 2019 #13

    cmason1957

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    I don't hold out much hope that this will work out for you. A similar question was asked on a Facebook group I am a member of. A few folks suggested the splash racking and use of hydrogen peroxide, Daniel Pambianchi (the group head honcho and overall smart guy about chemistry and wine making) said it won't work when the amount of meta-bisulphite is this high. But, who knows, he might be wrong.
     
  14. Oct 10, 2019 #14

    Johnd

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    I saw that too. I've read that bound sulfite will inhibit MLF, seems plausible that bound sulfite may also inhibit AF, it it's at high enough levels. Hate to see that much juice go to waste without trying.........
     
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  15. Oct 10, 2019 #15

    stickman

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    My opinion is that the juice will eventually ferment, but most likely there will always be a bitterness or off flavor associated with sulfite binding and various reaction products being produced.

    If the wine ferments with the free so2 present, the production of acetaldehyde during fermentation will bind with the so2 resulting in a large amount of bound acetaldehyde, generally bound acetaldehyde doesn't have an aroma, but this is a reversible reaction which means that if the free so2 drops in the finished wine, the aroma of acetaldehyde (rotten apple) will return.

    When you add oxygen to the juice you ultimately oxidize part of the juice and produce hydrogen peroxide that reacts and reduces the free so2. Adding hydrogen peroxide directly to the juice also reduces the free so2, but in either case the resulting primary reaction product produced is sulfate which can have a bitter taste depending on the amount present (in this case quite a bit).
     
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  16. Oct 10, 2019 #16

    Jeff Sparagana

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    Tested the sulfite level today before splash racking 190 in the 60 gallon tank and 181 in the 42 gallon tank. I plan to splash rack again this afternoon. I greatly appreciate all the responses. I tasted the juice as I have not had fermentation begin yet and it is typical white juice sweet and no off flavor yet.

    How long will it take to reduce the SO2 level? How many times a day should I splash rack?

    I have not read the most recent response yet but will after this post.

    Thank you
    Jeff
     
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  17. Oct 10, 2019 #17

    Johnd

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    Test your SO2 level after the splash racking that you did, and see how much SO2 was changed from 1 splash rack. That'll give you an idea of how many more you need to do..........I would think that you can splash rack as many times in a row as it takes, the sooner you can get the levels down and get your yeast going, the better...........
     
  18. Oct 10, 2019 #18

    Ajmassa

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    Better then expected. And Sounds workable to me!

    I believe the answer to your question will be answered through hard data.
    You’ve got your ppm known. So testing again after 24 hours and 2 splash racks will certainly give you an idea at the rate so2 is binding u. (Or whenever u decide to test again)
    Definitely curious to see what the new levels come in at. I’ve heard so2ppm removal taking time to show in the tests. But maybe not as stubborn in juice with no abv present. No clue. Im just a curious spectator at this point.
     
  19. Oct 10, 2019 #19

    Jeff Sparagana

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    I am also not sure when I should hydrate a new batch of yeast. Have used QA23 yesterday and will change to EC1118 which has a tolerance to higher SO2.

    I just checked the tanks and the 42 gallon has some bubbles on the surface. Will check again in an hour and if it has increased will add Fermaid O yeast nutrient.

    Any thoughts ?

    jeff
     
  20. Oct 10, 2019 #20

    Chuck E

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    I think the consensus is that you splash rack a bunch of times to get your SO2 levels down before you add yeast. Beginning the fermentation is going to limit what you do on the sulfite issue.
     

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