Proper Degassing

[JoeCal1952]

OK - I am back with more questions. I used to make wine with the FastFerment vessel, and I used to make it in my upstairs room where it is 75 degrees.

I was a bit disappointed in the vessel and switched over to bucket/carboy, and also moved my wine making down to the basement where it is 70 degrees in the summer, but dropped to 66 a few weeks ago.

1st mistake I made was trying to degas in the carboy and ended up with an overflow of foam. Didn't lose much wine but it was a mess. The reason why I degassed in the carboy was due to the instructions saying you need to degas and bring all the sediment back into the wine for proper clearing etc.

So, after making that batch of wine I started another batch, and I decided to transfer the wine from the carboy to the FastFerment before degassing, because in that vessel you can degas and never have overflow. I use an electric drill and wand to degas. I left the wine in the FastFerment for a month and then I was going to bottle but still it had that fizzy taste to it upon sampling it. So, is it the low temperature that is causing the wine to NOT degas properly? I never had this issue at 75 degrees. I know a lot of you don't even degas, but that process I no nothing about. What do you do? Go from bucket to carboy and then back to bucket to get the wine off the lees, then back to carboy to age? Please help. Other than this degassing issue my wines are delicious and the slight fizz goes away when you decanter before drinking. I have patience, so please tell me the RIGHT way to age/degas. Thanks!

 

[menerdari]

I did the same as you with a drill in the carboy, I came close to overflow but just stopped when the foam raised to high, I just recently started using vacuum degassing using a brake bleeding kit from Pet Boys, works better than the drill for sure.
I have read that you want the wine in the low to mid 70s when you degass, my work area is about 70 to 72.
actually here is a picture, I tucked the hand pump in the T shirt but you get the idea.

 

[AZMDTed]

I think it does have a lot to do with temperature. Degassing at 75 is the best temp for me. To get there in cooler weather I will put it in a water bath with an aquarium heater. I degas in a carboy and only had an issue with over foaming once. I will drill in one direction for 10-15 seconds and then stop and reverse, and repeat. Keep an eye on it so it doesn't rise too high. I would stir For a very long time, like 45 minutes. That may have been overkill and I worried about getting past degassing and adding oxygen, so I finally broke down and got the allinone wine pump, which naturally degasses as you rack. If you can afford it and plan on making wine for a while I highly recommend it.

 

[JoeCal1952]

Thanks for both replies....I will try this method with my next batch which is going to be an expensive Winexpert Eclipse Barolo style. My favorite grape is Nebbiolo. I will let you know how things go....
Thanks!

 

[ceeaton]

Joe,

+1 on the higher temperature and the brake bleeder setup. If you still would rather use the drill mounted degasser, remove a few liters from the carboy before degassing, helps minimize if not eliminate the overflow from the carboy volcano.

I made a WE Selection Viognier kit this Spring, degassed with the drill mounted degasser but my temperature was in the high 60s. Just a while back I had to unbottle 26 bottles into a 6 gallon glass carboy and degassed using a brake bleeder (from Harbor Freight), then rebottled. My fizzy Viognier is a thing of the past!

I plan on using the drill mounted degasser when I clarify a kit wine to whip up the sediment like the directions state, then do the vacuum degassing a few days before bottling.

 

[JoeCal1952]

Joe,

+1 on the higher temperature and the brake bleeder setup. If you still would rather use the drill mounted degasser, remove a few liters from the carboy before degassing, helps minimize if not eliminate the overflow from the carboy volcano.

I made a WE Selection Viognier kit this Spring, degassed with the drill mounted degasser but my temperature was in the high 60s. Just a while back I had to unbottle 26 bottles into a 6 gallon glass carboy and degassed using a brake bleeder (from Harbor Freight), then rebottled. My fizzy Viognier is a thing of the past!

I plan on using the drill mounted degasser when I clarify a kit wine to whip up the sediment like the directions state, then do the vacuum degassing a few days before bottling.

I had to deal with the fizzy wine, but after decantering for 10 minutes, the fizz was gone anyway. It just seems like a lot of work. 10 years ago I had never heard of the drill and wand method and all I did was stir the wine vigorously in the carboy for 5 minutes and never had issues. It has to be the temperature unless something changed with these kits and I doubt that. Thanks for the tips!

 

[JohnT]

Also agree on higher temps..

One question.. How old is your wine? Is there any residual sugar? Is it possible that fermentation might have kicked off again?

 

[JoeCal1952]

Also agree on higher temps..

One question.. How old is your wine? Is there any residual sugar? Is it possible that fermentation might have kicked off again?

Not sure what you mean about how old? Do you mean how long has it been in the carboy, or do you mean maybe the wine kit had an expired date?

If you mean in the carboy, I kept it in there a month after fermentation stopped. I don't bulk age and never did, and the kit was new and not expired. What's getting me, when I did this years ago, as I have stated, I didn't even own a drill and just stirred with the back of the paddle and never once had this issue. It has to be the temp.

The SG started at 1.090 and ended at 0.990 after 14 days. I re-checked before bottling and it was the same, so I don't think there was any additional fermentation. I can't afford a vacuum pump or that all in one pump. I may just get another carboy and rack 4 or 5 times and let it degas itself. I just hate adding K-Meta so often. Too much sulphites - imo

 

[Brian55]

Not sure what you mean about how old? Do you mean how long has it been in the carboy, or do you mean maybe the wine kit had an expired date?

If you mean in the carboy, I kept it in there a month after fermentation stopped. I don't bulk age and never did, and the kit was new and not expired. What's getting me, when I did this years ago, as I have stated, I didn't even own a drill and just stirred with the back of the paddle and never once had this issue. It has to be the temp.

The SG started at 1.090 and ended at 0.990 after 14 days. I re-checked before bottling and it was the same, so I don't think there was any additional fermentation. I can't afford a vacuum pump or that all in one pump. I may just get another carboy and rack 4 or 5 times and let it degas itself. I just hate adding K-Meta so often. Too much sulphites - imo

When bulk aging, you don't need to keep racking and adding So2, just add it once and let it sit in the carboy for however long you plan to bulk age. I usually bulk age for 10 to 12 months, then rack to a new carboy with another dose of So2 the same day I bottle.

 

[JoeCal1952]

When bulk aging, you don't need to keep racking and adding So2, just add it once and let it sit in the carboy for however long you plan to bulk age. I usually bulk age for 10 to 12 months, then rack to a new carboy with another dose of So2 the same day I bottle.

Brian, I DO need to rack the wine off the lees before adding that So2 to bulk age - right? Then I add it one more time when ready to bottle? Do you bottle right from the 2nd carboy, or do you have another type of equipment you rack to, maybe with a spigot to make bottling easier, or do you just siphon into bottles. Sorry for all the questions. Been doing this for years, but not with a bucket/carboy method. This is all new to me. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Brian55]

Brian, I DO need to rack the wine off the lees before adding that So2 to bulk age - right? Then I add it one more time when ready to bottle? Do you bottle right from the 2nd carboy, or do you have another type of equipment you rack to, maybe with a spigot to make bottling easier, or do you just siphon into bottles. Sorry for all the questions. Been doing this for years, but not with a bucket/carboy method. This is all new to me. Thanks for understanding.

Correct, after you've stabilized and have let it sit for at least a week or three. Then rack and So2 into new carboy where it will bulk age. Then after bulk aging, rack and So2 one more time into whatever you want to bottle from. I just use a carboy with a 1/2" autosiphon with an inline shut off valve to fill the bottles, this set up fills the bottles fairly quickly without any fancy equipment.

 

[JoeCal1952]

Correct, after you've stabilized and have let it sit for at least a week or three. Then rack and So2 into new carboy where it will bulk age. Then after bulk aging, rack and So2 one more time into whatever you want to bottle from. I just use a carboy with a 1/2" autosiphon with an inline shut off valve to fill the bottles, this set up fills the bottles fairly quickly without any fancy equipment.

I think I finally got it, thanks to you!

I use the auto siphon as well, but I still have part of my fastferment bottle filler that shuts off by itself when you lift it off the bottom of the bottle. My biggest issue was degassing and I found out it was the temp, but here is an interesting fact I just found out - There is a commercial winery near me, Barboursville, and I went on there tour, and they actually drop the temp of the wine to near freezing to degas. It just drives off the Co2, but I don't think I want to mess with that. Thanks for your help along with everyone who posted here!

 

[Floandgary]

So JoeCal,, as you see there as many opinions as there are wines. Since you've given us the fact that you are willing to incorporate PATIENCE/TIME into your process, allow one more opinion.. I typically ferment to dry (.993 or less) then splash rack to carboy (6gal) and stabilize with K-meta and Sorbate. After a week to settle I commence treatment ,, oak, flavorings, blends or whatever I have in mind for that particular batch. In 2-4 weeks I rack off treatment solids. Thereafter @3 months rack-over to eliminate sediments and treat w/K-meta. In about a year the wine has cleared nicely and CO2 has dissipated. Amazing what time will do. Then if necessary, decanting can provide a nice touch.. If you're willing to put in the time, experiment! There are so many processes with differing outcomes. Enjoy

 

[JoeCal1952]

So JoeCal,, as you see there as many opinions as there are wines. Since you've given us the fact that you are willing to incorporate PATIENCE/TIME into your process, allow one more opinion.. I typically ferment to dry (.993 or less) then splash rack to carboy (6gal) and stabilize with K-meta and Sorbate. After a week to settle I commence treatment ,, oak, flavorings, blends or whatever I have in mind for that particular batch. In 2-4 weeks I rack off treatment solids. Thereafter @3 months rack-over to eliminate sediments and treat w/K-meta. In about a year the wine has cleared nicely and CO2 has dissipated. Amazing what time will do. Then if necessary, decanting can provide a nice touch.. If you're willing to put in the time, experiment! There are so many processes with differing outcomes. Enjoy

Floandgary - We've communicated before on this and by now you know I can be a bit stubborn - I'll ask questions, get advice, and end up going according to instructions that came with the kit. My wines are all very good until I started having the issue with degassing. So - you are telling me you don't bother with degassing with a spoon or drill and wand? You let it happen naturally? I am going to do it your way and get another carboy and the only thing I do different is I put the oak that came with the kit in the primary, then when I bulk age I will add 2 oak sticks for the full year. One last thing.
Sorbate? I was told never to use sorbate in dry reds because it can throw off flavors. I guess that's maybe because those people aren't bulk aging?
Thanks for your help.

 

[menerdari]

Floandgary - We've communicated before on this and by now you know I can be a bit stubborn - I'll ask questions, get advice, and end up going according to instructions that came with the kit. My wines are all very good until I started having the issue with degassing. So - you are telling me you don't bother with degassing with a spoon or drill and wand? You let it happen naturally? I am going to do it your way and get another carboy and the only thing I do different is I put the oak that came with the kit in the primary, then when I bulk age I will add 2 oak sticks for the full year. One last thing.
Sorbate? I was told never to use sorbate in dry reds because it can throw off flavors. I guess that's maybe because those people aren't bulk aging?
Thanks for your help.

Time will degas wine if you bulk age (with airlock that is)
Sorbate is really only needed if you back sweeten/ add F-pack
I think they add it to dry wine kits to prevent fermentation from restarting in the bottle for those who don't quite get their wines finished before bottling.

 

[Floandgary]

Joe Cal/menerdari,,, Yes you are correct, we have comm'ed before. I was keeping my spiel somewhat general. More specifically tho, during fermentation I do stir 2X daily with the spoon and that helps dissipate a lot of the CO2 being produced. So in the secondary there is no huge amount and the several splash rackings along with TIME has effectively taken care of the fizz! As for the Sorbate,, I use it whenever I have plans of adding anything which may contain sugars (for all the known reasons!). Otherwise no need.. As I said, by now you can see that there is no "specific/rigid" course of action. Everyone has their own little twists and variations to the "general" winemaking process. In the end, it's your tastebuds you've got to satisfy!!! BTW, experimenting with 1gal batches is a lot easier to work with..
A neat place to find more to keep you thinking.
http://winemakersacademy.com/

 

[JoeCal1952]

Joe Cal/menerdari,,, Yes you are correct, we have comm'ed before. I was keeping my spiel somewhat general. More specifically tho, during fermentation I do stir 2X daily with the spoon and that helps dissipate a lot of the CO2 being produced. So in the secondary there is no huge amount and the several splash rackings along with TIME has effectively taken care of the fizz! As for the Sorbate,, I use it whenever I have plans of adding anything which may contain sugars (for all the known reasons!). Otherwise no need.. As I said, by now you can see that there is no "specific/rigid" course of action. Everyone has their own little twists and variations to the "general" winemaking process. In the end, it's your tastebuds you've got to satisfy!!! BTW, experimenting with 1gal batches is a lot easier to work with..
A neat place to find more to keep you thinking.
http://winemakersacademy.com/

About sorbate - I was told NOT to use it when making dry reds, so I don't use it. Stirring during fermentation I have not heard of although it makes sense. I guess it does drive off some Co2 and adds oxygen which helps the yeast. Also - I add my oak and "stuff" during primary, let it sit for 7 - 10 days and I am already at 0.990 SG. That's when I rack to a clean 6.5 carboy, stabilize, wait a few days, I gently stir it to get the sediment to the bottom, and when I see that, I rack to a 6 gallon carboy, add oak spirals, 1/4 tsp K-meta, and instead of bottling after the suggested time in the instructions, I am going to let that sit 9 months to a year and bottle, but add K-meta after the 1st 3 months. The only thing I don't like about this process is the extra K-meta, but if it works, I am game to try it. Sound about right? I am using your advice and a little of my own ideas as well - Thanks to all!!!

 

[Floandgary]

Joe ,, stirring in the primary (most instructions tell you to) puts the must/yeast/whatever else you have in there into suspension to encourage even fermentation. Just an easy stir mind you and it does NOT add oxygen! In the secondary, stirring does NOT get stuff to the bottom! Stillness and time allow particulates to settle to the bottom... When you rackover "with care", you leave those particulates behind. In another 3 months or so, there will be some more, tho less than before. The SO2 will dissipate with time as well. At a dose of 1/4tsp per 6gal, it does not accumulate!

 

[JoeCal1952]

Joe ,, stirring in the primary (most instructions tell you to) puts the must/yeast/whatever else you have in there into suspension to encourage even fermentation. Just an easy stir mind you and it does NOT add oxygen! In the secondary, stirring does NOT get stuff to the bottom! Stillness and time allow particulates to settle to the bottom... When you rackover "with care", you leave those particulates behind. In another 3 months or so, there will be some more, tho less than before. The SO2 will dissipate with time as well. At a dose of 1/4tsp per 6gal, it does not accumulate!

I understand what you are saying. Particles will settle to the bottom in time, but IF, and I say IF, you somewhat follow the instructions and do a very light stirring (degassing) in the carboy, the whirlpool effect it makes causes the sediment not only to drop down, but it settles along the outer bottom and when you go to rack again. you keep the racking cane dead center on the bottom of the carboy where there is no sediment. I am still going to do it your way since you've been at it longer and know a lot more than me

 

[menerdari]

I understand what you are saying. Particles will settle to the bottom in time, but IF, and I say IF, you somewhat follow the instructions and do a very light stirring (degassing) in the carboy, the whirlpool effect it makes causes the sediment not only to drop down, but it settles along the outer bottom and when you go to rack again. you keep the racking cane dead center on the bottom of the carboy where there is no sediment. I am still going to do it your way since you've been at it longer and know a lot more than me

the thing is, you don't rack right after degassing so stirring will not make a difference in racking, either stir up sediment and degass like WE kits have you do and leave it to settle and clear or rack off of the sediment and then degass.