Other Post 1: You CAN make wine too!

[pmf2000]

It amazes me how often people tell me they tried to make wine once or twice and then gave up. In truth, wine making (from a kit) is somewhat frustrating for a newcomer. First, while the basic equipment starter kits work, they certainly don't make things easy. Next, most of the people I know either started with a low end kit to keep overall costs low; or in some cases they actually bought a higher end kit thinking they were going to have the equivalent of $25/bottle wine at the end of 6 weeks. In either case, you have a recipe for disaster.

I wanted to start a thread that i could point my friends to that would describe a strategy for success to keep them interested in the craft beyond the first kit or two they make. In wine making, the single largest factor besides the grape juice itself is time. However, if you have an interest in making wine, you want to be drinking what you make ASAP! Is it any wonder that people try making wine and then give up?

I started making wine almost two years ago and if someone told me then that I would have to wait until now to start drinking it, I would have never had the patience. And yet today knowing how great a 2 year old bottle can be I am fully prepared to make wine today knowing I won't even try it until next year.

In the next couple of posts, I will talk about strategies for getting started, equipment recommendations, and then some of the more advanced techniques and equipment that I have worked with to make great wine. I hope others will join in to make recommendations as well.

 

[Pumpkinman]

In truth, wine making (from a kit) is somewhat frustrating for a newcomer.

I've never really perceived kit wines as hard or frustrating, they come with detailed step by step instructions.
There are many other brews that can be made and consumed fast while you wait, fruit wines,Skeeter pee, cider, beer and so on.

 

[Julie]

I agree with Tom about kits. Actually, I thought kits were designed to keep your interest going and give you the confidence to venture farther into winemaking.

 

[TonyP]

I had several comments to make, but then noticed the original posting had two likes. So I guess I'm missing something. Overall, though I just have one suggestion. Perhaps you can start a website with forums, articles, and reviews. I'm certain someone can come up with a catchy name like ...

 

[DaveL]

As a newbie I can attest that without this website to get answers to the many questions that arise I can see how this process could be frustrating. As in any multiple step process things seldom go exactly as planned. Having the reassurance that it will still be ok or the direction on how to try to fix it is very helpful.
It also helps to keep ones interest up when you can share your excitment in the process with others of a like "sickness"

 

[wineforfun]

As a newbie I can attest that without this website to get answers to the many questions that arise I can see how this process could be frustrating. As in any multiple step process things seldom go exactly as planned. Having the reassurance that it will still be ok or the direction on how to try to fix it is very helpful.
It also helps to keep ones interest up when you can share your excitment in the process with others of a like "sickness"

I agree with DaveL, this site and the helpful people on here have made this new venture a little easier going.

Also, I think DangerDave's DB recipes and others like it make it easy to see a. if this is something you are going to like to do and b. it allows you to get use to using the equipment, chemicals, terms, etc. in a simplified way.

 

[btom2004]

I agree pmf2000 . The results of a wine makers first attempt will either make or break them into the addictive world of wine making. Although the kits are straight forward enough to do. There is a lot to do in between the lines of the kit instructions. There are so many life ajustments, that must be made in order to complete your wine. As a newbie one doesn't know that kit instructions are not really written in stone and you can deviate.

Who has missed or canceled events, in order to hang around the house; to be there to work on the next step of the wine you're working on?
Who has spent tons of money on new and improved items, as basic wine making equipment kits only have the cheepest items on the market?
Who knew, that you had to have a place to make wine and store wine after bottling?
Who knew of the ills of fermentation and the lack of?
Who knew, that you had to make sure to clean everything, bottles, carboys, spoons, buckets, strainers, ect. every single time you use it. Even if you just used it 5 minutes ago?
Who knew, carboys were so heavy when filled?
Who knew, that even when your kit indicates that you could bottle and drink after a certain time, that actually it take up to a year+ for any wine to mature?

Thus after the first attempt and the virtual time invested in making a wine kit. You taste your wine and it tastes like crap, only because...Who knew that's just the way young alcohol tastes and it must age to a year before it is even drinkable?

When you just don't understand what you are doing and what's going on, you tend to not want to stay involved. When you start to add up the money you are spending to make your own wine, you may decide to just buy some and be done.

That's why I'm glad I found this forum, at the very same time I decided to make my own wine. This place is my panic room. It's a place where I can come for a safe place to hide and learn how to avoid the dangers of wine brewing. If I didn't find this place, let me testifiy and say I most definitely would have given up making wine after that first kit I made.

@ On the humorist side. I spend money buying wine equipment, supplies, chemicals and making wine, than I do on alcoholic beverages. In fact I haven't purchased a beer or bottle of wine since starting to make my own wine. I haven't been able to drink much of the wine I make, as it has to age first.
Hmmmmm....I wonder? This must be the reason why, when ever I do get to sample a bottle; just to see what it tastes like I have to take a nap and sleep for two days. This home brewed stuff is some strong potent wine and with no hangovers.

 

[pmf2000]

A couple of things come to mind as I read these posts. While there are certainly instructions for making kit wine, the instructions do not always tell you the best or easiest way of doing things. The instructions may say sanitize your wine bottle. But what is the best way to do this? If you are just starting, this might not be obvious. Or another one of my favorite instructions is to degas your wine by stirring vigorously with the small end of the spoon. Where I live in Canada, I could (and did) do this for a month and not make a dent in removing the CO2. Specific to this example, I often gave up and moved on to the next step. My early wines were not quite what they could be as a result.

This forum and website is a fantastic resource but the information is scattered. If someone can point me to a post (or two) that will tell someone that is just getting started what equipment they need, where to get it (cheaply), and a strategy for starting off in this hobby without having to wait a year to enjoy the fruits of your labor, I will simply point my friends there and call it day. Again my premise for starting this thread was to share some of the experiences I have had and to hopefully get people making better wine faster and with a little less effort.

 

[TonyP]

I'll admit upfront that I sort of have a problem with your premise that anyone can come up with one guaranteed answer to almost anything in wine making. When I started out, I did so by buying books only to find them filled with inconsistencies. When I joined WMT, I came to realize there's more then one approach to everything. In fact, three posters may give you four answers.

The main reason is that wine making is a combination of art and science, with much of the science open to conjecture. Try basic questions like when does must become wine, or when should you go from primary to secondary, or should you age in bulk or bottles to see what I mean.

The fact is that few of us (and certainly not yours truly) can say almost anything with absolute certainty. That's why folks post questions and others offer their perspective, with everyone free to choose the one they prefer.

 

[pmf2000]

Tony,

By no means am I saying my way is the only way hence I say in my original post, "I hope others will join in to make recommendations as well." That said, I have made 35-40 kits in the last couple of years using a wide variety of methods and I have learned a few things that might help

Tim

 

[BernardSmith]

I am not sure I completely agree with TonyP that there are many "inconsistencies". I think what there are is a fairly wide range of possibilities, many different processes and a great many assumed truths (though not as many tested assumptions). For example, I read here that many home winemakers de-gas at relatively high temperatures because CO2 will be more easily expelled from the wine at those temperatures, but at those temperatures the more volatile molecules that provide flavor and aroma also leave the wine. So, should you de-gas at low temperatures, at higher temperatures or allow the wine to degas over time. I don't think that there is one right or wrong answer. It depends. Each option has its own cost and its own benefit. Knowing what outcome you are looking for determines what option you should take. What everyone agrees , however, is that you should not bottle before the wine has sufficiently de-gassed.. But again, how much de-gassing is sufficient? That too, depends. I just read a short paper by Daniel Pambianchi on CO2 where he mentions a Portuguese wine bottled with about 2000mg/L CO2. That's about the same amount of carbon dioxide in the wine you have as it ferments to dry. In almost all wines having that amount of CO2 when you bottle would be considered a real fault and a rookie's mistake, but if you are making Vinho Verde, this is precisely what you want.
I guess my point is that there is no simple right or wrong. There is only what you are trying to achieve and the processes you might use to achieve that outcome. BUT if rookies don't have a good idea of what outcomes they are trying to achieve (it's a "black box" known only in terms of the instructions or recipe) or they are trying to achieve something which they cannot with the materials and ingredients they have or they don't have a good idea of what processes they should use to obtain the specific outcomes they do want, then making wine is likely to be more miss than a hit.
And I say this as a rank beginner.

 

[Runningwolf]

pmf2000, when I first started reading your original post on this thread I was a bit concerned leading people to think kits are cumbersome. I started out with a Blackberry Island Mist kit. That single kit was easy and is responsible for the rest of my story in winemaking which has turned professional.

I applaud you for what I think you're really trying to do not only for your friends but anyone else that is just trying to start up. Thats the beauty of this particular forum. We don't care at what stage you're at in this hobby, we're here to help you. What one person asks, there's another dozen out there wondering the same thing. Thanks for what you're doing.

 

[pmf2000]

Dan,

The truth is I don't think making wine from a kit is that difficult. However there a few things that make it easier. Most of it is small stuff. When I first started, I use to use a butter knife to get the top off of the kit. It worked better than using my hands but they also make a $5 tool to do the same which is even better. I initially used a standard floating thermometer which needs to be cleaned and sanitized every time you use it. They also make self adhesive thermometer strips that you can stick to your primaries and carboys so you never have to clean or sanitize a thermometer again. They work great. My first bungs were solid and it was very difficult to get the airlock in and out (water works as a decent lubricant but it is still a pain). Not surprisingly they make semi hollow bungs that remove this obstacle. I never stress about this anymore. The hand corker that comes with most starter kits works but it's time consuming. It really is worth the effort to get a good floor corker. And I haven't even gotten to the auto-siphon, bottle cleaner, or my favorite stirring tool. My bet is if you have been doing this awhile, you already know this stuff and probably take it for granted. But if you were brand new or perhaps you made a kit or two, you might not know this.

In the end making wine really isn't that hard. But there certainly a few things that you should have to make things easier and it does not have to be super expensive to get what you need.

In my case, no one told me about the little tricks or things to look for to make it easier. And in truth I learn something new every time I make a new kit.

Going back to my original post - I am simply hoping to share what I have learned to keep people in the hobby past the first kit or two. Given the number of variables involved, I am by no means telling people they have to do it like I do or use the same equipment or even use the same kit company.

This will be the last post explaining the purpose of the post Tomorrow I will start going through the basic equipment list and options for getting what you need.

Tim

 

[Pumpkinman]

Here is my 2 cents:
Although I can see your point, I've trained and mentored numerous new comers in another hobby/sport that I enjoy, what I've found is that if I overload them with too much technical info at once or too soon, it turns them off.

What is perceived as a nice relaxing hobby now becomes yet another chore. When given a big list of products & equipment that we use, not to mention the costs that are involved to purchase these items, it can easily seem like a daunting task instead of a real rewarding hobby.

Tom

 

[Runningwolf]

Tom, I think what Tim is trying to do is just bring up the simple tricks we casually talk about but it's not written in books anywhere. I see the value in what he's doing but also agree about getting to much technical info would be scarey.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Dan,
Absolutely, I don't mean to discredit Tim in any way, I apologize if I came across that way, I guess I was trying to give a word of caution about data over load on a newcomer.

 

[TonyP]

I guess I'm just a contrarian in all this. While I appreciate his goals and see the benefit in providing useful information, I just don't think a forum is the correct place to do it. It's not what a forum is for several reasons, the primary one being it will be difficult to find a month or two later. The website has a section called "Articles" where information is posted and easily available. (I have one on Cleaning and Sanitizing.) My suggestion is to write a series of articles rather than posting to a forum. For me discussions are found in forums and information is posted in articles.

 

[Julie]

TonyP, that is a very good point and a very good idea. I know Txbrew is always looking for someone to write articles.

 

[pmf2000]

Post 2: Basic Equipment List

AJ, Justin, Allan, and Lynne - This is for you.

There were a few things that initially got me into making wine. One - I had a good friend that consistently made good wine and when we hung out we drank a lot of it. Two - It is not uncommon for my wife to have a glass or two of wine in the evening. Relative to the States where I am from, wine is expensive in Canada. Even boxed wine can add up quickly. Three - I was in Costco one day, and they had a deal for $100 which gave you a starter kit and two wine kits (red & white). Given that my wife and I were not overly picky in our taste of wine, this seemed like a fantastic deal. Thankfully I did not get it but the gears in my head started turning.

Wine Equipment Starter List

I have included a picture of what typically comes in a Equipment Starter

• 7.9-gallon Fermenting Bucket with Lid
• 6-gallon Better Bottle Plastic Carboy
• #10 Drilled Rubber Stopper
• 3-Piece Airlock
• Triple Scale Hydrometer
• Bottle Brush
• Siphoning Package (Racking Cane, 6 ft. Hose & Springless Bottle Filler)
• One-step Sanitizer
• Easy Double Lever Corker
• 30 #8 x 1 3/4" Corks

This type of kit typically costs $60-$80 depending on where you live. Let me be very clear on this point - This will absolutely let you make wine but in truth if you stay with this hobby you will probably replace at least a third of this. In addition you will end up getting things like an auto siphon, drill attached stirrer, and maybe even a wine filter system.


My first suggestion is to stay away from this kind of kit and look elsewhere. I have already mentioned that people get into this hobby and for one reason or another, they then get out. There is rarely a time where you cannot find someone that is getting rid of their equipment. In my case, I bought my initial equipment for $250 and got 8 Carboys, a wine rack, corker, beer making equipment, a wine filter, chemicals in addition to the the items listed in the starter kit above. I have included a couple of examples of what is listed in my area for used equipment. There are always a lot of deals out there.

Another tip for those that really get into it. I have a daily search setup to look for "wine making equipment". I have found some things really cheap or even free for myself. While I am good for equipment at this point, I won't shoot down free carboys.

On average I tell my friends to budget $150 and to look for people that are selling their equipment.

In my next post I will start the process of looking at the individual equipment I use and what to look for as part of an 'ideal' starter kit.

 

[Julie]

pmf2000,

Are you stating that this thread is for no one but your personal friends? This forum is for everyone and every thread is for everyone. As stated you have some very good knowledge and writing an article would be extremely beneficial to everyone.

If you just wanted someplace to post instructions to your friends you should maybe think for something more private.