possible alternative to topping off?

[TheRooster]

As a beer brewer trying his hand at some winemaking, I've read a number of threads regarding the need to top off kits with like-wine, adding marbles, scaling carboys done, et cetera... However, if the point is to help prevent oxidation in a carboy under an airlock, why not blanket the wine with co2 from my kegging setup? I've been surprised not to have seen this topic before, given the frequency of discussion concerning the topic of topping off. Is there something I'm missing, or is this possibility omitted as most home winemakers wouldn't have this as an option? Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Tess]

Topping off with Co2 has been mentioned many times here. I dont want to deal with it. I top off with a bottle of my wine that I think will enhance the flavor. Like I just topped off my Dragons Blood with a mango I made and it taste wonderful

I topped off my Shiraz with a black and Blue (Blackberry Blueberry) I made. I can only think that will be wonderful when I drink it in a year or two

Plus it can get into a heated debate with people saying the Co2 seeps out over time which is not true. Logic should tell you that NOTHING can come out of that carboy with out being replced by something else, AKA air. Sense its on air lock that's not gonna happen. Just my thoughts. Im new but logic is logic

or should I say physics is physics.

 

[Bartman]

Tess - the CO2 that is 'escaping' (or being released) is in solution as a result of fermentation, like the CO2 in a bottle of Coke (except it has been added afterwards, not as a result of fermentation). A Coke that is opened and allowed to go 'flat' has not appreciably lost volume/mass, just some of the CO2. That's not to say *all* of the CO2 escapes from the carboy, but the 'excess' amount that would make your wine fizzy on your tongue.

BTW, since I consider my wine to be supernaturally good, I don't think ordinary physics apply to it in a predictable manner!

As to the original post, there is nothing inherently wrong or damaging about using CO2 to top off, except 2 things: a) we as homewinemakers work real hard and debate mightily about the best way to get CO2 out of the wine, so adding it to the top would be counterproductive, and b) most of us (I think) do not also make beer, so it's not a possibility for us non-beer-makers to even consider.

 

[robie]

The wine will absorb the CO2 every few days and you will have to add more CO2. As was mentioned, most of the time we are trying hard to get rid of the CO2, not add more.

 

[Tess]

Im not an wine expert yet but I do know the logic of physics. Nothing can move into , or out of the wine with out something taking it place... it physic 101. It cant move out or be absorbed.Once that air lock is put on. Nothing is going anywhere. lol

Tess - the CO2 that is 'escaping' (or being released) is in solution as a result of fermentation, like the CO2 in a bottle of Coke (except it has been added afterwards, not as a result of fermentation). A Coke that is opened and allowed to go 'flat' has not appreciably lost volume/mass, just some of the CO2. That's not to say *all* of the CO2 escapes from the carboy, but the 'excess' amount that would make your wine fizzy on your tongue.

BTW, since I consider my wine to be supernaturally good, I don't think ordinary physics apply to it in a predictable manner!

As to the original post, there is nothing inherently wrong or damaging about using CO2 to top off, except 2 things: a) we as homewinemakers work real hard and debate mightily about the best way to get CO2 out of the wine, so adding it to the top would be counterproductive, and b) most of us (I think) do not also make beer, so it's not a possibility for us non-beer-makers to even consider.

I agree but there is always a layer of that Co2 setting on top of the wine even to its last mins of fermentation.
It leaves that last layer that protect that wine. It just sets there. thats why you really dont have to top off until you have totally degassed the wine and its no longer releasing the Co2 like it was during fermentation.
Its just not possible to move anything on this planet with out it being replace by something else in this case Air. It cant go into the wine or out of the carboy with out something taking its place. With an airlock on it its just going to lay on top.

Think about it. Stand up and take one step to your left. Something just look your place. Air!! If that air were not there to take your place you would not be able to move.

that's also why a lot of wine kits don't have you topping off at the first racking. they have you racking just before fermentation is complete. It will push C02 out of that air lock until its not longer pushing. Then it will just set there until you take off the air lock and release it

 

[seth8530]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion

I do not think it in itself is a bad idea. Many commercial wineries use inert gas to create a safety cloud over wine to help mitigate oxidation issues. This below article describes its use..

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/inertgas.pdf

I believe one thing you want to watch out for is managing to get CO2 into suspension with the wine. Ie, a protective blanket and not actually forcing it into suspension with the wine by over pressurizing/ concentrating the CO2.... But read the article for more details.... One thing that might be possible is using a keg to protect the wine with CO2 over the long term and then force degassing it when aging is complete.. However, I might be concerned about forming carboxylic acid from the CO2.

 

[jamesngalveston]

first off, never ever mess with a redhead...
is the trapped co2 in the wine liquid are in the wine must/sediment, are both.

 

[dessertmaker]

Beer stays full of CO2 once you pitch your yeast. And when you finish it you end up putting it in a keg or bottle and forcing even more CO2 in suspension. You dont degas beer. And you don't normally worry about beer soaking up CO2 if you "blanket" it.

Wine has to degas or it wont clear and you can't stabilize it until its properly cleared.

So a winemaker has an extra concern that is alien to a beer maker. Will the CO2 diffuse into the wine?And is the wine at a stage where the slight amount extra CO2 would be harmful?

My guess would be no if its a wine in a carboy under an airlock. The airlock should keep the pressure close to the same on the outside of the carboy as it is on the inside of the carboy.

I'd try it on a batch and see.

 

[jamesngalveston]

Wine has to degas or it wont clear and you can't stabilize it until its properly cleared.
I keep reading this and reading this...can not stabilize until its clear..
Yet every dragon blood I have made I add campden/sorbate to stabilize before it is clear,and right out of the primary.

So is everyone saying this wine is not stable......

 

[dessertmaker]

I'd give it a shot on anything under airlock, stabilized or not. What's the worst that's gonna happen? Having to degas it again and it taking a little longer to clear? If its not stabilized then you're gonna have to degas it anyway before you add your chemicals so then it's even less of a problem.

Either way it's worth experimenting with in my book.

 

[MrKevin]

I don't use inert gas often but when I do, I use argon. Not quite as heavy as CO2 but works well and is not absorbed by the wine.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

A lot of misunderstanding going on in this thread. Partial gas pressures are important in physics to determine where gasses go and why. An airlock keeps the pressure exactly the same pressure as outside air. CO2 wouldnt leave the wine if you kept adding it back in, the CO2 that leaves thru the airlock is replaced by more coming out. That Dragon blood protocols are standard winemaking steps, standard protocol is to allow the wine to clear before stabalizing, of course you can add sorbate anytime you want, but stabalizing is much more than just getting the yeast to fall out.

MrK hit it on the head, some other inert gas like Argon to displace the CO2.

WVMJ

 

[jamesngalveston]

of course you can add sorbate anytime you want, but stabalizing is much more than just getting the yeast to fall out.
so what is stabalizing if not adding campden/sorbate and racking.
thanks.....

 

[Tess]

A lot of misunderstanding going on in this thread. Partial gas pressures are important in physics to determine where gasses go and why. An airlock keeps the pressure exactly the same pressure as outside air. CO2 wouldnt leave the wine if you kept adding it back in, the CO2 that leaves thru the airlock is replaced by more coming out. That Dragon blood protocols are standard winemaking steps, standard protocol is to allow the wine to clear before stabalizing, of course you can add sorbate anytime you want, but stabalizing is much more than just getting the yeast to fall out.

MrK hit it on the head, some other inert gas like Argon to displace the CO2.

WVMJ

The C02 thats coming off the wine replaces the C02 coming out of the air lock but once the C02 stop pushing it out and there is nothing to replace it. it just lays there it will not go back into the wine unless there is something to replace is. Matter replaces matter
and Air is certainly matter; air has mass, it takes up volume

gas is matter. Matter is anything that has mass and occupies space. Now Im done

 

[seth8530]

The C02 thats coming off the wine replaces the C02 coming out of the air lock but once the C02 stop pushing it out and there is nothing to replace it. it just lays there it will not go back into the wine unless there is something to replace is. Matter replaces matter
and Air is certainly matter; air has mass, it takes up volume

Who said every little space on this earth had to be occupied? Also, eventually the CO2 will eventually migrate into and out of the wine according to Fick's law according to the concentration gradients. Its not that the CO2 only leaves the wine and then pushes some out the airlock. Much much more fluid than that.

 

[Boatboy24]

I don't use inert gas often but when I do, I use argon.

 

[Tess]

Who said every little space on this earth had to be occupied? Also, eventually the CO2 will eventually migrate into and out of the wine according to Fick's law according to the concentration gradients. Its not that the CO2 only leaves the wine and then pushes some out the airlock. Much much more fluid than that.

it is occupied. Matter is everywhere

unless you live in a vacuum and even then something is being pulled through that vacume

 

[GreginND]

Tess, the molecules in a gas can occupy less space when it is dissolved into a liquid. As a gas the molecules are spread far apart. I think you are forgetting about density in all of this.

 

[seth8530]

http://education.jlab.org/qa/matter_01.html

Technically, matter is not everywhere, but that is besides the point for the issue at hand.

The more important issue is that inert-gas/CO2 is in fact used in winemaking to create a blanket above the wine. You only want to replace the gas space with your gas of choice leaving little to no room for oxygen. That way as the wine releases its own CO2 the airlock it will either release CO2 or inert gas from the gas space while simultaneously replenishing the gas space with CO2 from the wine.

One needs to take care as to not force excess CO2/inert-gas into suspension by over-pressurization of the gas space. Inert gas requires a higher pressure than CO2 to get forced into suspension with the wine, so naturally Argon is a more attractive gas than CO2.

 

[seth8530]

first off, never ever mess with a redhead...
is the trapped co2 in the wine liquid are in the wine must/sediment, are both.

Redhead vs Redhead?

The trapped CO2 exist in the wine/must and to a much lesser degree the solid sediment. As time goes by the CO2 gets released from the liquid giving us our little bubbles in the airlocks that can take so long to leave. One can speed up the rate of CO2 dissipation by raising the temperature of the wine or lowering the pressure around the wine thus forcing the CO2 out of suspension with the wine. ( Forced degassing).