New wine room build - planning

Discussion in 'Wine Cellar & Storage Forum' started by brewbush, Nov 8, 2017.

Wine Making Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk by donating:

  1. Nov 8, 2017 #1

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    So I am considering making a room in my basement into a wine cellar. Right now my wine is on metal racks in a basement room, temps however are usually 65-72 year round...humidity 50% at most. I had a wine enthusiast wine fridge for 300 bottles that recently crapped out, so instead of replacing it I was thinking of taking my time and redoing this part of my house. I have tried to read as much as I can online and the forum.


    My first step would be to obviously remove everything here, it is my wife's craft/storage room.

    IMG_0990.jpg



    Walls:
    The room is irregularly shaped. The room sits below ground. The window looks out at ground level, this wall is likely drywall with concrete behind it. I may remove the wall in front of the closet to open up the area a bit more. The 2 side walls are 4 inch studs, and the wall opposite the outer wall has metal studs..about 3.5 -4 inch. Ceiling is 8'3". In the pictures near the entry door there are ducts, would those need to be moved since they run directly through the first part of the room? I would then reinstall green board.

    The shape would be slightly irregular. The main room without the entry way area is 9ft by 17ft.
    If I utilize the closet space this adds an additional 7.5ft x 3.25ft.
    Total square footage is about 195 ft2

    IMG_0993.jpg


    IMG_0991.jpg

    IMG_0989.jpg
    Insulation:
    I can not find insulation that fits 4 inch studs that is better then r-15. I assume I would have to get the spray closed cell insulation for best results. I would probably still vapor barrier the perimeter prior to insulation in case I have to use batting material.

    Floor:
    This I am not sure about. My entire basement has linoleum tiles throughout. Underneath is concrete. Would I have to pull up the floor tiles to make sure to seal the concrete for the room? I have not decided on what my flooring will be.

    Cooling:
    I am hoping I can use a through the wall cooler in place of the window.



    This is just a start, but right now I have a little over 1000 bottles both homemade and commercial and I need to get them protected in some way.
     

    Attached Files:

    bkisel and Ajmassa like this.
  2. Nov 8, 2017 #2

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Just a Guy

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2016
    Messages:
    3,229
    Likes Received:
    2,523
    Awesome! I enjoy seeing a plan come together from the brainstorming stage to the finished product. Will this be a cellar or a winemaking room as well? More
    Metal racks or built-ins?
    The insulation- I guess it depends on what you intend. A constant 55° all year?
    Depending on how close the studs are to the concrete behind it, you might get lucky with a couple extra inches between. If so then u could fit r-19. With a vapor barrier + r-19 would be plenty. (I'm not a fan of the spray insulation. Expensive and It closes off all the bays and locks in all your electric making for a huge hassle if access is needed later for anything. Murphy's law. Plan for it!)
    Closet? I'd remove that yesterday and utilize every area I could if possible. And use shelving units and cabinetry for storage. That is, If life allows. That's a pretty filled room currently.
    Finish Flooring-compared to everything else that'd be last of my concerns. If your on a good slab and don't take in rain water ever than you could do anything you wanted. Also would be the last thing done- but..
    I'd chop it up! I always pictured a center floor drain possibly ran to a sump pump as well as much needed large sink area in my future wine room project. Just a few months away !
    If your tiling then a floor drain can be incorporated nicely within a mosaic type centerpiece. Don't start talking about some lame "budget" nonsense now. Go Big!
    Good luck. Big, small or in between it's fun and exciting to figure out a plan for a new cellar or winery room and put it into action.
     
  3. Nov 8, 2017 #3

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    I may start with my current amazon metal racks, have 7 of them. Then eventually buy some built in kits to install.

    Yes for the 55-ish, at least hoping.

    For the flooring, I wasnt sure if I even needed to rip up the existing tile or hope that it would be good enough in the wine room?
     
  4. Nov 8, 2017 #4

    AZMDTed

    AZMDTed

    AZMDTed

    Just a guy

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    540
    Sounds like a great project, have fun. Keep us posted.
     
  5. Nov 8, 2017 #5

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Just a Guy

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2016
    Messages:
    3,229
    Likes Received:
    2,523
    With no plumbing I don't see a need to rip it and would just be an added expense. Removing the closet would expose either a section missing or fastener holes through it. But it comes down to what you level of "finished" your ok with.
    I got caught up in my earlier reply since a wine room project is something I've been planning for some time.
     
  6. Nov 8, 2017 #6

    Kraffty

    Kraffty

    Kraffty

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,491
    Likes Received:
    2,041
    I think these threads are really fun to follow. I'm not clear whether this solely a cellar or if you also plan on making it a dedicated wine making room also. Either way, it looks like a great space to start with.
    Should I ask??? Where is your wife's stuff banished off to?
    Mike
     
  7. Nov 8, 2017 #7

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,524
    Likes Received:
    4,983
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    We built a wine room (winemaking and storage) last year, you can check it out here if you're interested: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/new-wine-room.52998/

    The biggest concerns in this area were the ability to cool adequately and prevention of moisture / mold problems. Since you have a basement, you're north of us (we call basements swimming pools down here in Louisiana), so those may not be big issues for you.

    Some folks depending upon their locale, can just put a through wall a/c unit in a room and move on, ours is a full fledged refrigeration system, making insulation and vapor barriers of paramount consideration in the construction. The room is 55F / 70%RH inside while it's 95F / 95%RH outside, nightmare for condensation and mold growth. Your thoughts about vapor barriers is dead on, and closed cell foam insulation is a great all around solution for a renovation project, plus it's ability to insulate is so much greater per inch than conventional insulation, kills two birds with one stone.

    Looks like you've got a great space to start with, hope it turns out great!!!!!!!
     
  8. Nov 8, 2017 #8

    bkisel

    bkisel

    bkisel

    Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    3,656
    Likes Received:
    1,768
    Oh, if I were only about 50 years younger I'd show you a wine cellar. ;)
     
  9. Nov 8, 2017 #9

    balatonwine

    balatonwine

    balatonwine

    The Verecund Vigneron

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Badacsony wine region. Hungary
    I showed this to my wife. Who often has a similar.... uhm.... spatial arrangement <cough>disorder</cough>. And her comment?

    "She for sure knows where everything is, and clearly no one built her shelves."

    Pardon me if I am not here for a few days. I have a few shelves to build.....

    P.S. This comment was approved by my wife. :)
     
  10. Nov 8, 2017 #10

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    John, I read through your build also, great looking! I possess 10% of the carpentry and renovation skills, but I do know one who is a family friend and build my library!! I am hoping to try to get the majority of the busy work done myself since labor cost is a killer.

    I have an unfinished part of the basement that I anticipate making into a combo craft room and beer/winemaking area. The reason I do not want to use this area for the wine cellar is that the ceiling is a bit lower from the support beams, there is above ducting to deal with, and walls will need to be built. Having one finished room in a larger unfinished area would feel weird since that area is on the 10 year plan to finish.

    The floor I was just concerned about keeping it in a 70% humid environment, not sure if the underside needs to be sealed....or if it is already.

    This project was moved forward a bit also because I like to make more wine then we are capable of drinking (10+ carboys are sitting in the hallway now) and we also enjoy wine clubs (Hall, Mayo, Signorello, Long Meadow Ranch, Hanzell, and Bravante.) Thinking about what I have in the basement I think I need to store it properly if I want it around the next 10-20 years.
     
  11. Nov 8, 2017 #11

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Johnd

    Large Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,524
    Likes Received:
    4,983
    Location:
    S Louisiana
    Thank you for your kind words, it was a fun project, and for the record, I didn't do all of that myself, but I did do the design, demolition, drywall, painting, most of the carpentry, and electrical work once the panel was installed and inspected.

    Don't sell yourself short, you can do more than you think with a little research and planning, may take a little extra time, but you've already waited this long!!!

    As for the floor, I had similar concerns. If you have a concrete slab, the coldness will wick moisture up through the slab, so make sure you either seal the surface, or use a porous material. I went with the latter, a cement mud bed with slate on top, so it can breathe.
     
  12. Nov 9, 2017 #12

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    Ok,
    So had a meeting with the wife. I think we may have found a better place that won't involve a retake of the "craft room"

    Opposite end of basement is my current wine storage area. It involves the area under the stairs. Here is the entrance IMG_5241.JPG

    Inside the door

    IMG_5242.JPG


    Looking in and to the left

    IMG_5244.JPG


    Under the stairs

    IMG_5243.JPG

    And some ceiling pics

    IMG_5247.JPG

    IMG_5246.JPG

    IMG_5245.JPG




    So a few questions and comments. I have my step father who can help.

    1. I would stud the concrete walls, vapor barrier and insulate like normal.
    2. Floor is the same as other one. Is there any harm in just leaving it alone, hoping during installation that the concrete underneath was sealed?
    3. Ceiling would be easier to work with.....I can use spray insulation on the walls, but maybe just batting in the ceiling. This would help if I ever needed to get to the plumbing pipes and other runs of electrical work that is here.

    4. Any opinion on the wires and plumbing you see in the ceiling? These seem to me to be able to be left alone, batting insulation, and if I need them in the future I will just have to cut the drywall to get at them?

    5. Other electrical home theater equipment will be moved.

    6. The large support beam above the currently non-working wine fridge would be where the other wall will go. I will put in a 2nd door here to access the other section of this room....electrical panels, water pressure tank, some other equipement.

    7. Ultimate plan would be to put a window to the left of the main door to allow a nice visual look to the wine cellar.


    What are your opinions.

    Jon
     

    Attached Files:

    WeimarWine likes this.
  13. Nov 9, 2017 #13

    AZMDTed

    AZMDTed

    AZMDTed

    Just a guy

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    540
  14. Nov 10, 2017 #14

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    Ted,
    I wish I could use AC but the entire room is below grade, I don't want to vent into the rest of the finished basement (which I could do , but that might also not look the best)

    My only option is I can access the ceiling from a closet upstairs near the kitchen, there are some electrical lines that run top right above the concrete blocks. I was thinking some ducts may be able to be routed in from the garage area, through the closet and into the ceiling of this area.

    You do have me thinking hard about if I do seal up that ceiling, if I need to access the plumbing pipes or anything like that, I would have to bust up the insulation and ruin the vapor barrier not to mention the finished ceiling.

    Edit...thinking about it, with all those lines up there, I am not sure this is a good spot to seal up. May have to craft room this project after all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  15. Nov 10, 2017 #15

    Mac60

    Mac60

    Mac60

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    149
    Looks like a similar size room, I finished mine last year, all 3 walls are below grade, the inside wall I insulated. the room keeps a constant 65 air tempo and 70% humidity.

    GOPR0499 (640x480) (640x480).jpg GOPR0498 (640x480).jpg GOPR0491 (640x480).jpg GOPR0482 (640x480) (640x480).jpg GOPR0481 (640x480).jpg GOPR0497 (640x480).jpg GOPR0493 (640x480).jpg GOPR0492 (640x480).jpg
    View attachment 44526 View attachment 44527 GOPR0499 (640x480) (640x480).jpg GOPR0498 (640x480).jpg GOPR0491 (640x480).jpg GOPR0482 (640x480) (640x480).jpg GOPR0481 (640x480).jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
    ibglowin, JohnT, dcbrown73 and 6 others like this.
  16. Nov 10, 2017 #16

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    If you had this beam in the area you were building out what would you do to seal it (it might be in the middle of the wine cellar)?

    And what would you do about the metal pole smack dab in the middle of it? Can that pole be moved if I were to put 2 other poles either further out towards the end still offering support?

    IMG_1013.jpg
     
    WeimarWine likes this.
  17. Nov 10, 2017 #17

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Ajmassa

    Just a Guy

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2016
    Messages:
    3,229
    Likes Received:
    2,523
    Nothing. I'd leave it exposed. And if compelled maybe clean it up and stain & urethane to match any other wood trim in the room. If the wood was ugly or jacked up then I'd wrap in nice stain grade wood and trim possibly. Maybe even get fancy with etching the family name or something fun like that.
    ..Or just rock it. No bs.

    Small chance that you can. Playing with fire now! I like your optimism. Let's get some info.

    1. What is the current span from column to column, or is it just 1 column in center?
    2. what's the full span of the beam?
    3. is it pocketed into foundation walls? Or how is it supported other than the center column(s)?
    4. is the lally column(s) filled with concrete?
    5. do you know or can you tell if the column is resting on a footer poured specifically for it? (Can you make out an indentation or anything revealing a separate square or round section of concrete at the base?)
    6. is the header original or was it installed after removing another load-bearing wall? I'm assuming original as it seems like a newer home.
    7. Is it possible that column is also carrying down continuous support from load-bearing on above floors?' ** if so then you could just jump back to the "exhausting the AC" issue since that column ain't movin.
    8. Ok. Bear with me here. if you were to grab the column and using your full body weight swinging around and twisting/pulling/kicking, are you able get any movement whatsoever? If so do you see the column moving independently from the header or does it end up just shaking the whole 1st floor. (This might sound ridiculous but should be a good indication. You'd be surprised how many columns aren't really holding any weight and are just thrown in at the end just because, well why not?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  18. Nov 10, 2017 #18

    Redbird1

    Redbird1

    Redbird1

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2016
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    102
    I would definitely consult an expert on the metal pole question. The beam it is supporting likely has the greatest loading in the entire house.

    As for covering the beam itself, what kind of motif are you planning for the room?
     
  19. Nov 11, 2017 #19

    brewbush

    brewbush

    brewbush

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    65
    This is the area we are going to use. As far as the pole, that will be the corner of a wall. The room will be L shaped, That far wall is 19 feet. The total area we agreed on is 228 square feet,

    The metal pole I will just incorporate into the corner of the new wall, I will stud out with 2x4s. I am planning on closed cell foam for insulation so no need for 2x6.

    For the ceiling it is pretty deep. Nails are exposed all over which is why I am leery of putting up vapor barrier correctly without holes. How deep do I ask the installer to spray the foam or do I pre-stuff the area with something to help decrease the amount of insulation I need to pay for?

    For the beam this will extend through the cellar area, the ceiling will be about this beam. I guess I was assuming that it would need a vapor barrier as well, but from the sounds of it I can leave it exposed in the humidity without issue?

    We spent today cleaning out the area, will post pictures soon.





    1. What is the current span from column to column, or is it just 1 column in center?
    Just one column in the center. seems to be part of the concrete floor and wedged in and there are 2 nails attaching it to the beam.
    There are 3 beams like this in the basement. The poles are "somewhat" in the middle of each beam.

    2. what's the full span of the beam?
    19 feet

    3. is it pocketed into foundation walls? Or how is it supported other than the center column(s)?
    It rests on both sides on the concrete foundation.

    4. is the lally column(s) filled with concrete?
    Have to google that one....


    5. do you know or can you tell if the column is resting on a footer poured specifically for it? (Can you make out an indentation or anything revealing a separate square or round section of concrete at the base?)

    Not that I can tell.

    6. is the header original or was it installed after removing another load-bearing wall? I'm assuming original as it seems like a newer home.

    1999, just was kept as a workshop by the previous owner. He was a DIYer that I am slowly finding out over the last 5 years I lived there that he knew enough to be dangerous.

    7. Is it possible that column is also carrying down continuous support from load-bearing on above floors?' ** if so then you could just jump back to the "exhausting the AC" issue since that column ain't movin.
    Will be in the wall, I think I solved my issue.
     
    Ajmassa likes this.
  20. Nov 11, 2017 #20

    mainshipfred

    mainshipfred

    mainshipfred

    Junior Member WMT Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,100
    Likes Received:
    1,851

    Brother, I was trying to one up you but I can't. You hit everything I would have thought of.
     
    Ajmassa likes this.

Share This Page