Neutral 23L barrel

[troutstix]

Hello,

I have a 23L barrel that is no longer imparting any oak flavor, and I am wondering how long everyone is leaving their kits in a neutral barrel to get good micro-oxidation?

I was doing 12 weeks, but need to speed things up because I am getting too backed up. I am still trying to get the 2011 LE's thru, and am my 2012 LE's are starting to pour in! I would like to cut down to 8 weeks, but I am not sure if I will get as good a benefit. Btw, I have (2) 23L barrels (one american and one hungarian) and don't really want to get another- unless it is a 46L.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ibglowin]

I just received my 3rd 23L Vadai last week. My first two are hitting the sweet spot of 3-4 months. I personally think 3-4 months is a great amount of time for these small barrels. 8 weeks is really a bare minimum for a decent amount of oxidation on these. I really wanted to order the 40L Vadai its almost twice the storage for only $23 more but these 23L barrels are really the perfect size since my carboys are 23L as well. Even with doing 800lbs of fresh grapes this Fall, I still end up putting it all into 23L glass carboys and then as needed 1G jugs.

Perhaps my 4th will be a 40L!

 

[robie]

I agree with Mike. I just started with my 2nd 23l barrel.

 

[UBB]

I'm seriously wanting to get a barrel (or 2) in preparation for my grapes next fall. What kind of price are you guys paying for the 40 liter barrels? Also, if any of you guys have a pic you'd like to share it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ibglowin]

95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.

 

[UBB]

95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.

Thanks! Seems to me that 2 barrels would be a good start. One for the fresh grapes and one for kits.

 

[robie]

My Vadai barrels each cost $180 to $190, if I remember.

I get:
23 liter barrel
wooden stand (a must for the barrel)
wooden bung
solid silicone bung
silicone bung with hole.

 

[Arne]

95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.

Is that a new pic. Mike?? Leaves on the trees in back, Green on the grass down below. Its disgusting, sounds like it is gonna be all white and deep around here by Sat. Noon. LOL, Arne.

 

[UBB]

My Vadai barrels each cost $180 to $190, if I remember.

I get:
23 liter barrel
wooden stand (a must for the barrel)
wooden bung
solid silicone bung
silicone bung with hole.

does that price include the shipping?

 

[robie]

does that price include the shipping?

Yes, to Colorado from California

 

[ibglowin]

That was last (early) Spring IIRC. I had just gotten Vadai #2 (on the left). Vadai #1 is on the right. Nothing prettier than a brand new barrel before you get it all covered in red wine stains!

Is that a new pic. Mike?? Leaves on the trees in back, Green on the grass down below. Its disgusting, sounds like it is gonna be all white and deep around here by Sat. Noon. LOL, Arne.

 

[ibglowin]

I just paid $182 with shipping to NM for the 23L with the stand and a solid silicone stopper.

Don't ever use the oak bung that comes with the barrel as it will just get stuck and you will have a heck of a time trying to remove it. You will need a hammer and a pair of channel locks!

does that price include the shipping?

 

[robie]

I just paid $182 with shipping to NM for the 23L with the stand and a solid silicone stopper.

Don't ever use the oak bung that comes with the barrel as it will just get stuck and you will have a heck of a time trying to remove it. You will need a hammer and a pair of channel locks!

Nothing beats a silicone bung. I pretty much threw the wooden bungs "in the corner".

I also ordered the special bugs that let pressure inside the barrel escape but nothing back in. I guess they are the barrel version of the dry air locks. I use them when I ferment in the barrel. They make a cool little "pith" sound when barrel is fermenting.

That photo of your barrels is really easy on the eyes. I love my barrels, red stains and all.

 

[troutstix]

Thanks everyone!
As I looked back on my notes (when breaking in the barrels), 12- 14 weeks seemed to be ideal. I was hoping that I could maybe cut down on time a little, but I guess that won't do! Maybe time to look at a bigger barrel, sooner rather than later(I am doubling up on several of the LE kits this year). Cheers.
MC

 

[DrJayman]

So to clarify 2 different topics here......(amount of time exposed to wine to become neutral and minimum microoxidation time).... Assume a 20L vadai which I find better suited for the decreasing returns from rackings.

A. 3-4 months of oak "usefullness"?

And...

B. 12 weeks minimal for good micro-oxidation?

thanks

 

[robie]

If I understand your question and understanding, A is wrong.

As the barrel gets older, the wine has to stay in it longer to get the same amount of oaking.

For a brand new barrel, 2 to (3 or 4) weeks is pretty much the longest the wine can stay in.

For the next batch, the time needed pretty much doubles. It doubles again for each subsequent batch. Eventually the barrel will no longer provide any oaking; it is then considered a neutral barrel.

Of course all the times depend on how much oak you really like and the particular wine being oaked. It is always necessary to taste test the wine for oak.

When the barrel is new and the first batch stays in only 2 to 4 weeks, that is not enough time for a good amount of micro-oxygenation (M.O.), which is around 3 to 4 months.

Same is true for barrel concentration, which is the water and alcohol evaporating out, requiring more wine to be added back. Each time water and alcohol are replaced with wine, the contents of the barrel is richer and thicker, increasing the mouth-feel of the wine.

M.O. and concentration are why I, personally really prefer smaller barrels when they become neutral. To add oaking, one can always add oak from chips, cubes, or spirals, but there is only one (practical) way for home wine makers to get the M.O. and concentration.

Mike may comment, but I believe the reason why he said 3 to 4 months for oaking is "the sweet spot", is because it is the same amount of time it takes for M.O and good concentration.

Hope this helps.

 

[ibglowin]

I am now at 4mo on two of my 3 Vadai's. Very nice amount of Micro-Ox at that level. You loose about 2 bottles of wine over that time frame to the angels share so pretty nice concentration as well. It will take you ~18mo to get there. With this years crush I will adding a few ounces of French oak beans to these barrels as well.

 

[Boatboy24]

If you're losing 2 bottles worth, are you topping up or adding marbles to limit headspace?

 

[ibglowin]

Always topping up.

 

[robie]

When it comes to red kits, there is nothing like putting them through a small barrel. It makes all the difference in the world. Trust me on this one, if you want a kit to be more like its commercial counterpart, learn to use a barrel for it.