Mosti Mondiale MM Instructions - What were they thinking?

[ibglowin]

I don't understand the logic behind the instructions in this kit. First MM All Juice. Have only done 2 Cellar Craft kits before this one. The CC kits made absolute sense as far as timing for transfers and the addition of packets.

From the raisin addition to the transfers from primary to secondary I am at a loss here.

I transfered from primary to secondary carboy yesterday a FULL day later than what the instructions said to. SG was at 1.032 instead of the 1.5-1.4.

After squeezing the raisins, adding the yeast nutrient and stirring the must I transferred into a 6 gallon Italian glass carboy. I got a wine volcano. Lost about a half glass of wine. The CO2 is coming off like a rocket now that its all confined to the 2 inch opening in the top of the carboy.

The instructions say to stir daily to get the oak dispersed. This AM I get up and look at the thing and its still foaming at the top. I decide to stir gently to see if I can get the oak to disperse a bit. You guessed it, another wine volcano.

CO2 is still just pouring out the top. There will be no way to stir this until it settles down.

It seems to me this thing should have just stayed in the primary until dry, then transferred to secondary, add oak and stir daily for another 7-12 days until secondary fermentation was complete. Then rack and continue.

Anyone else have this problem or is it just me? For those who have made more than a few of the MM kits, do you follow the included MM instructions to the letter or deviate?

 

[JimCook]

Mike,
Keep the rule of thumb of adding a yeast nutrient to an open primary and then racking. There is normally an initial CO2 surge from the yeast as they get this dose of speed and start going nuts for a second. Check to see if the instructions note to add the nutrient first and then rack - they did in a previous iteration but I'm not sure about the current instructions.


If the CO2 is going that crazy, there will be microcurrents associated with it that will give the same effect as you stirring. Don't worry about stirring until this subsides a bit.


In my conversation with Matteo specifically about the use of raisins per Mosti instructions at WineStock 2009, he said that the instructions are written in a way to assume that people aren't paying attention and forget about timing, erring on the longer side.


Due to the number of MM kits that I have made, I can't say that I currently follow the instructions to a point. If any kind of raisins are included, I leave them in the primary until they are free of sugar (taste test will tell this closely enough). I will add a yeast nutrient at the 50-66% fermentation mark in the primary without racking. I will rack once the wine is down below 1.020 s.g. provided that any raisins are sugar-free. I personally tend not to use the oak provided with kits as I can detect a very specific flavor that comes from it, although if I were oaking per kit instructions, I would then rack over onto the provided oak at this point and let the wine do its thing with stirring as necessary.


- Jim

 

[patc]

Sorry about the trouble, I have done a few MM kits and what i do which BTW i copied from Georges video from the website works great this is what i do and i do not have a problem, check SG you cannot go by any of the kit instructions idea that it takes a certain amount of days as every fermenting situation is different it will give you an idea but not an exact so use your hydrometer! Do not sweat it that much that when you checked the SG that it was just below your racking SG just try to do it as close to that as you can then after squeezing the raisens and adding the nutrient , fill a wine bottle about half to three quarters and put an air lock on it then the rest in the six gallon carboy and put an air lock on that. You should not have any spillage and that is what george shows in his video and is what i have used for every MM kit and i have not had a problem just be careful and try to time when you shut off the spicket that it does not overflow the wine botte as letting the wine level get too high on the wine bottle and not factoring in the extra wine in the tube you will get suprized as when you shut the spicket off it has to come out so just allow for that extra and you should be fine . when your ready to stabalize and degass rack the wine bottle off of it's lees into a steralized carboy and transfer the rest off of it's lees on top of that then stabalize degas and continue with whatever the next step is whether bulk aging or clearing your choice but remeber to rack down to a 5 gallon and a half gallon jug or equivalent if bulk aging as the headspace in the 6 gallon will be too much for bulk aging.

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks for your responses,

I had an earlier post about the fermentation rate of this kit as it seemed rather tame compared to the CC kits but it was coming down in SG pretty much as normal, then I added the nutrient and BOOM. The instructions online at the MM website for the ALL JUICE kits is nothing like what my instructions say......

I put my raisins in cheesecloth instead of just pouring them in like what the MM kit instructions say to do so it was easy to do a spoon crush each day and stir them up a bit. I made sure to crush them and squeeze the heck out of them to get all the good stuff out and into the primary.

I think I will definitely leave them in primary for 6-7 days next time. This just makes no sense to move into secondary with this much activity.

 

[RickC]

I have done 2 MM kits with raisins and left them in the primary until 1.2 to give it as much time on the raisins as possible. I did not have a wine volcano but if I remember right both werequite active for a few days.

 

[Big Ike]

Mike,

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've done one MM with raisins. I was concerned about contact time with the raisins while in the primary. I shot George an email and he recommended leaving the raisins in for at least the minimum time recommended in the instructions and then transferring into the secondary vessel.

As far as the volcanos go, I cheat. I only fill the carboy to the point where the top begins to narrow from the widest diameter. I let the fermentation go a few days and then top off with the extra that I put in gallon jugs.

Jim Cook has me making all these crazy additions (only because of his example) to these kits now and I've started using anti-foaming agents (not his recommendation) with great results on the volcanos, but I'm not sure on any other changes to the final product.

Hope I contributed.

Ike

 

[Wade E]

I dont follow the instructions for MM kits an d do as RJS kits were. I let them ferment dry in the bucket or very close to it using the lid and airlock at the end. Actually I always use the lid and airlock but for those that dont I typed that in for them to follow. I dont open towards the end to keep the protective layer of C02 there. Fermenting all the way in the bucket helps in a few ways. racking to early can leave good yeast behind and make your wine struggle to ferment dry and actually cause your yeast to stress out and give off flavors ad smells. Leaving it all in there also helps your wine rid itself of gas due to all the available volume. Ive been doing it this way for many years now and never have a problem with not fermenting dry or off flavors and smells and degassing has been much less of a problem. Its usually done within 2 weeks and thats no problem at all for any fruits going bad or gross lees.

 

[JimCook]

Wade,
I'm with you on leaving it in the primary longer. In the least, as you've shown us in pictures, wine volcanos are messy. I'm pretty sure that Mosti instructions state to give a good stir and rack everything over, so I'm doubting that any yeast is going to be left behind. The addition of the nutrient should give those yeasties a pretty big boost as well. I'm not sure what kind of nitrogen additive levels the Mosti yeast nutrient provides, but they're providing 10g for 6 gallons - yeast nutrients like Fermaid-K run in the 1g/gal range. I'm not actually sure what the reasoning for racking early is - but just like you I leave it until almost the end of fermentation.


- Jim

 

[ibglowin]

Thank you for all the sound advice guys!

I have another MM on deck, a Pinot Grigio for the wife so it is so good to know that others have successfully deviated from the instructions with no problems.

This morning is day 6 and its still just pouring CO2 off the top and the airlock is beating like a heart.........

Next time its in the primary till dry and the raisins are staying in with it!

Now to tell the wife that this kit is obviously messed up and I need to order a replacement!

Well keep you posted as I want to bulk age this guy and am sure to have more questions.

 

[pao1x]

My standard procedure is two weeks in the primary with a loose fitting lid, stirring twice a day, adding nutrient around 1.030, continue stirring twice a day until the two week period is up. Rack, add k-meta, top up, add oak staves (if using), do nothing for 3-4 months. My wine is clear at this point so I will rack if needed. No wine volcanos, no beating the wine to death to de-gas.
For whites I may leave it age a little more before botteling and reds go into the barrel.
I do not see a need for clearing agents or sorbate. I do not like sweet candy tasting wine so I leave the sorbate out.
Paul

 

[vcasey]

Yes leaving the wine in the primary longer certainly helps with the degassing and reduces the wine volcanos, which also makes hubby less grumpy

. Like Wade I try to leave both my wines and meads in the primary until they are finished fermenting, or close to being finished. When adding extra nutrients I mix it in with some of the wine and then add it to the must and once stirred it adds a nice head of foam.
Mike when my ABC got going the airlock banged away for about 2 weeks, my son said it sounded like a machine gun that never runs out of amunation!
VC

 

[ibglowin]

Thats a pretty good analogy!

Mike when my ABC got going the airlock banged away for about 2 weeks, my son said it sounded like a machine gun that never runs out of amunation! VC

 

[kmitch747]

I got the wine volcano when I did my first MM Chardonnay, I was freaking out, and I even had some of the extra in a separate jug. It calmed after about a day.

When I did my MM Amarone, I let it sit in the primary a little longer, mixed the yeast nutrient into the primary, and then transferred to the carboy. I was expecting a volcano so I only filled it halfway up the slope and jugged the rest. The CO2 seemed calm, so I topped it to the neck, and it never volcanoed on me, yay!

I think the trick that worked for me was to ferment a day or two longer in the primary and then mix the nutrient in the primary after removing the raisins. I'm a novice, but I had chardonnay volcano experience to work with, haha.

 

[ibglowin]

I just pitched the yeast on my second MM All juice yesterday (Sangiovese). This AM I have a beautiful cap already and its barely 12 hours old!

This guy is staying in primary for a week!

 

[surlees]

Mike,
Don't use time to measure how long to leave your wine in the primary, use your hydrometer instead. Don't rack until your hydrometer reads 1.010 or lower. This may be in 5 days or it may be 9 days.All this volcano stuffis because people are racking too soon. You want to rack when youryeast is producing only enoughCO2 to provide a layer that will protect your wine against oxidation.


Fred

 

[Goodfella]

Surlees nailed this one perfectly. Take his advise on this!!!

 

[ibglowin]

Hi Fred,

The instructions that come with the Mosti kits tell you to rack at 1.04 and put into carboy. It just seems crazy. I just started another Mosti kit on Sunday (see above) and I plan on following the instructions more like that in the Cellar Craft kits. The instructions tell you to do like what you say, go by SG readings and not time. I have been checking SG after about 3-4 days and then daily after that until ~1.000. Racking after that into carboy for ~12 days or until SG is 0.996 for two consecutive days. That is considered the end of secondary. The Cellar craft instructions just seem to make logical sense. Not so much for the Mosti instructions!

 

[surlees]

I'll admit I've never done a Mosti kit although I plan to soon. When I do, I'll rack at or near 1.010 no matter what their instructions say. I've never had any problems using this SG for other brands of kits and I've never had any volcanoes or oxidation problems.


Fred

 

[Big Ike]

Mike,

I'm confident that I'll be doing another kit in a month or so and I plan on following Jim and Wades advice and leaving wine in the primary through the entire fermentation and sealing the lid around 1.020-1.010 sg.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Ike

 

[ibglowin]

I am on day 3 on my MM All Juice Sangiovese. I will check SG and will be adding nutrient to the primary once its around 1.040.

This bad boy formed an actual cap for the first 36 hours! Looked like a crusty grape cap of dried foam and dried grape juice. Its settled down nicely now to what I call the fizzy coke fermentation look.

I am excited for this one as Sangiovese is one of my favorite varietals. Its an amazing overlooked wine here in the US!