MLF Questions

[Cjk]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie to juice buckets. All of my brief experience up to this point has been with 10 wine kits. Over the weekend I picked up two juice buckets (Cabernet Sauvignon & Merlot) with the intentions doing MLF in both.

My questions are:
When should I start MLF?
How do you know when it's complete? Do you have to test?

Sorry if these questions are basic. I'd rather ask then screw up the wine.

Thank you for any input. It's always appreciated.

Chris

 

[Smok1]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie to juice buckets. All of my brief experience up to this point has been with 10 wine kits. Over the weekend I picked up two juice buckets (Cabernet Sauvignon & Merlot) with the intentions doing MLF in both.

My questions are:
When should I start MLF?
How do you know when it's complete? Do you have to test?

Sorry if these questions are basic. I'd rather ask then screw up the wine.

Thank you for any input. It's always appreciated.

Chris

Im only on my second mlf but my first completed very quickly when i co-innoculatted it 24 hours after i pitched my yeast. I just pitched my second batch today post innoculated after my fermentation was complete, i waited until fermentation was complete (.994) and then waited 24 hours, racked off the lees, then pitched mlf bacteria. Heres a graph showing favorable conditions for mlf, i use a chromatography test to see if it was complete.

 

[Cjk]

Thank you Smok1. I appreciate the information and the graph. Very helpful. I ordered a chromatography test kit.

Thanks Again!

Chris

 

[user 36973]

It is safer to add the ML culture once the alcoholic fermentation is fnished. The SO2 level will be lower then and there will be very little, if any, sugar available. The malolactic bacteria can convert sugar to acetic acid (vinegar), so if you co-innoculate with the yeast during primary fermentation you are taking a big bet that the fermentation won't stick and leave sugar behind for the bacteria to work on.

A good primer is here:
https://winemakermag.com/493-mastering-malolactic-fermentation-tips-from-the-pros

 

[Smok1]

Wow i didnt realise mlf bacteria could convert sugar to vinegar, now im concerned because my wine had a relitively high ph to begin with and i just read that makes it more suseptable. My wine got below 1.000 sg but im sure theres a possibility that theres still residual sugar in it, im gonna have to do some more research and maybe give dose up on my so2.

 

[Johnd]

Wow i didnt realise mlf bacteria could convert sugar to vinegar, now im concerned because my wine had a relitively high ph to begin with and i just read that makes it more suseptable. My wine got below 1.000 sg but im sure theres a possibility that theres still residual sugar in it, im gonna have to do some more research and maybe give dose up on my so2.

Calm down, maintain a healthy fermentation with your parameters in line, the yeast will do their job, and so will your mlb.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/20...lation-of-malolactic-bacteria-and-wine-yeast/

 

[Smok1]

Calm down, maintain a healthy fermentation with your parameters in line, the yeast will do their job, and so will your mlb.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/20...lation-of-malolactic-bacteria-and-wine-yeast/

Ok im feeling better after reading that link, although i do have one question regarding so2 in an active mlf. My fermentation finished good, pressed at 1.000, waited about 36 hours, racked off lees, tested sg again (0.996) at that point i added my mlf nutrients, rehydrated and pitched the mlf bacteria. Its about 36 hours in and i can see tiny bubbles now. So my question is at the start of fermentation i weighed in enough kmeta to get me to 50ppm but i havent added any since, is this ok?
2. Should i be stirring daily now? Weekly? Or just let it be and do a chroma test in a few weeks?

 

[Ajmassa]

Wow i didnt realise mlf bacteria could convert sugar to vinegar, now im concerned because my wine had a relitively high ph to begin with and i just read that makes it more suseptable. My wine got below 1.000 sg but im sure theres a possibility that theres still residual sugar in it, im gonna have to do some more research and maybe give dose up on my so2.

Jgmillr1, there's been a ton of case studies and research&development since that article you posted was written. If you look it's from 2000, when co-inoculation risks were all scientific theory.
The theory's are all perfectly logical too. Which is why it wasn't ever common practice. But dozens and dozens of case studies over the last decade (just like the study Johnd posted) have debunked all that. And defying logic (or just opening up new logic) co-inoculation has shown to be just as safe, practical and proven as a typical inoculation- if not more.
And Smok1, it ain't no thang. Worst case scenario- you'll have a lifetime supply of vinegar. Do you realize how many household uses there are out there?

 

[Ajmassa]

Are you asking if you needed more so2? 50 ppm is the max you'd want to do when inoculating after AF. Maybe 0-25ppm if co-inoculation. So by the time you inoculate enough have been bound up for the malo's so2 tolerance.
Not daily stirring no. Just once or twice a week. Lightly. Just to kick the lees into suspension if the bacteria gets buried. Some don't stir at all and get through just fine. Oak also can help the bacteria latch on to something and benefit the process I read.
I like to test early to have a reference point for later tests. Plus, if life and work allow the time, it's fun.

 

[FTC Wines]

Smok1, My MLF is exactly where yours is. This is only my second one. Just checked and nice little bubbles flowing. I'm going to stir 2X a week gently. As per AJ 's suggestion I'll probably do the Chronology test tomorrow, day 3 of my MLF. A reference point sounds good & I probably need the practice. Roy

 

[Ajmassa]

Smok1, My MLF is exactly where yours is. This is only my second one. Just checked and nice little bubbles flowing. I'm going to stir 2X a week gently. As per AJ 's suggestion I'll probably do the Chronology test tomorrow, day 3 of my MLF. A reference point sounds good & I probably need the practice. Roy

That's another really good point. It's nice to familiarize yourself with the chromatography. Because even though it's not difficult, it's a very specific process.
I'm on my first real grape batch this year, having done a small grape batch in May almost as a trial run to see what was what. Before that it was juice w/o MLF. The term "butchered" comes to mind thinking about my 1st attempted chromatography test.

 

[FTC Wines]

AJ, I have noticed my Cab & Petite Shirah from grapes are doing a much stronger MLF than my juice buckets of the same varieties. Have you ever noticed that? Roy ps the buckets had a 1/4 of a lug of grapes fermented in them.

 

[Ajmassa]

In terms of visual activity? Yes. I noticed the little bubbles in one batch, but not the other. Did an early test, and they both showed good progress at the time.
Same thing this year. Noticeable bubbles in these vessels, but not those. Chromatography showed all were progressing well at similar paces.

 

[Johnd]

Ok im feeling better after reading that link, although i do have one question regarding so2 in an active mlf. My fermentation finished good, pressed at 1.000, waited about 36 hours, racked off lees, tested sg again (0.996) at that point i added my mlf nutrients, rehydrated and pitched the mlf bacteria. Its about 36 hours in and i can see tiny bubbles now. So my question is at the start of fermentation i weighed in enough kmeta to get me to 50ppm but i havent added any since, is this ok?
2. Should i be stirring daily now? Weekly? Or just let it be and do a chroma test in a few weeks?

When I’m planning to MLF a wine, I don’t add any SO2 at all, until MLF is complete. VP41 can purportedly handle up to 50 ppm, but the more you have, the more stress on the mlb. If I had some moldy fruit, maybe a bit at crush, but that’d be it for me.

Stirring is recommended to keep the bacteria suspended and active, a few times a week should be plenty. Sometimes mine get stirred, sometimes not.

I definitely wouldn’t add any more SO2 til you’re complete.