WineXpert Kit taste - red vs. white

[hobbyiswine]

I have made a number of kits both red and white. Kits of red and white have varied in "level" from basic to premium. All are WineXpert.

Question is...the white wines seem to have a bit more individual character where as the reds all seem to have a similar "kit taste". The reds all taste a bit different but they have the common "kit taste" characteristic. All are quite drinkable and some are down right great. Just curious if others had experienced more " KT" with reds vs. whites and any thoughts others on the forum might have.

 

[Rocky]

Hobby, white wines are made from kits very much like they are made from grapes in that white wines normally do not "sit on the skins" during production. Juice buckets of white are virtually the same as making the wine from grapes. It has been my experience that white kits and buckets make a wine very similar in body and taste as commercial wines. Red wines, on the other hand, do "sit on the skins" and even though many kits have grape packs, the amount of skins is not near what one would have in making wine from grapes. There are some things that can be done to improve the reds, e.g. add more skins, add raisins in addition to skins, add oak cubes, etc. I have done many of these things and I have been very pleased with many of the red kits I have made, notably CC Showcase series and RJS Winery series.

 

[SouthernChemist]

How long have these Winexpert reds aged? I think it's generally agreed that the 'kit taste' disappears over time.

I've made only one Winexpert red (NZ Pinot Noir), which definitely had what seems to fit the 'kit taste' description in the beginning. That taste had significantly toned down last time I tried a split (about 9 months old).

The one Winexpert white I've made (Selection Original Viognier) did not have anything resembling 'kit taste' - similar to your white wine experience.

 

[mmadmikes1]

WE is noted for the kit taste

 

[wood1954]

for what it's worth, my first 4 kits were and are kind of stinky, after being open for several hours and up to two days, the smell goes away and it's pretty good wine. On all those batches i used chlorinated city water. On the next six batches i used spring water and it's night and day difference. the 6 reds i have aging are already really good. also i think i improved my hygeine and sparged every carboy with CO2 while racking. And.. I bought fresh K-meta. Had a bottle last night of a blend of all 6 wines, i just kept adding the dregs from the carboys as i racked them and then after a couple weeks racked that and let it sit for a couple weeks. no off smells or tastes, just really good smooth wine. Love this hobby.

 

[ibglowin]

Lets put it this way. I am no longer making red kits only white kits. All reds for me are now from fresh grapes. White kits turn out 20X better than any red kit I ever made. Just something about fermenting on 100lbs of skins (fresh grapes) vs 2lbs of skins in a top end red kit.

 

[Geronimo]

Wow, no more reds? I take it your red kits were terrible?

I have to say that a few of my reds have been next to stellar. Only a few bottles of vino that I've personally tasted have surpassed certain batches of red that I made from kits. These people aren't lying about the medals they win.

If all you've ever made was WE, then I can understand it. Waiting 2+ years for the Cab Sav to mellow out is just not what a typical hobbyist wine maker wants.

 

[ibglowin]

Made plenty of good ones and a few really good ones. Even the really good ones don't compare IMHO to fresh grapes made from quality fruit.

Wow, no more reds? I take it your red kits were terrible?

 

[greywolf]

Made plenty of good ones and a few really good ones. Even the really good ones don't compare IMHO to fresh grapes made from quality fruit.

I'm in the same camp. No more red kits, they just don't compare to fresh grapes, IMHO. And I do agree with the kit taste. Whites on the other hand are different, they come much closer to commercial wines. I also believe that the frozen grapes are even better than the fresh grapes. Just racked a cab made from frozen must that has aged for 2 years and sat in an oak barrel for 1 year and it is amazing.

 

[Rocky]

This difference of opinion will rage on forever, that of Kits vs. Buckets of Juice vs. Fresh Grapes. I have tasted good and bad wines from all three processes and I believe a lot of it (not all of it) depends on the winemaker himself or herself. There are two kit manufacturers that I prefer, RJS and Cellar Craft, though I am sure there are others out there with their favorites.

I find that I have been making fewer red kits since I have gone to juice buckets. In my area, I get Northern Hemisphere juices in the Fall and Southern Heisphere juices in the Spring. My fermenting capacity is 42 gallons so I make 84 gallons per year from juice. This method has reduced my cost considerably even though I add a 2.5 kg grape pack (about $20) to all my reds. Still, I really like the Cellar Craft Showcase collection and RJS Winery Series, in general and the Rosso Fortissimo, Super Tuscan and Old Vine Zinfandel, in particular. So, I am making some of those kits and a number of white kits along with my fresh juice buckets. I have made a lot of wine from fresh grapes and other fresh fruit. Altough I still have my press, I have no plans to get back to grapes at this time.

For me, it is a matter of many variables, e.g. quality. cost, amount of work, available varieties, equipment required, etc. In the final analysis, it is a matter of taste and everyone should so what suits him best.

 

[Wade E]

I agree also that grapes can not he compared to kits and I will also say that buckets dont come close to either unless..... it is a bucket of frozen must. I have never come wcross a bucket that came out ad good as a high end kit. I am strictly talking Red wine here!!!! Now with that all being said you have to know what your doing with grapes or you can end up with a wine that isnt as good as either a bucket or good kit!!!!

 

[ibglowin]

This is just me and my $0.02 talking here. I know plenty of folks satisfied with their red kits "as is" with little or no tweaking. I just kept feeling something was still missing and wanting more from them that it got to the point that switching over to fresh was the only thing left that would possibly satisfy my desires for an out of a bottle of "commercial quality" wine that I can truly say I made.

Kits taught me the process, gave me confidence and allowed me to tweak (a little or a lot) without worrying all that much. I still have plenty of good ones in the racks that I have tweaked about as much as one can. They are indeed good/great at 18mo-2 years (All CC Showcase or Showcase LR kits).

I am looking for "exceptional" I guess. I may or may never find it but I will sure as heck enjoy the journey as they say. That to me is what its all about.

 

[Rocky]

Very well put, Mike. However, it does bring up a question that has occurred to me and that is, Who is to say that "Commercial Quality" is better than the wine we are making? Personally, I find commercial wines now tasting more and more like chemicals but perhaps that is because the wines that I have bought are toward the lower end rather than the higher end of the commercial offering. I seldom buy anything which costs more than $40 a bottle. The exceptions are some Italian reds, mostly Brunellos, that I have in my cellar that were as much as $85 per bottle. I have been saving them (I know not for what!) but perhaps it is time to try one and compare it with some of my wines that I feel are very good.

My point is, I don't think that "commercial" is necessary better than "home made" and I would cite the bread and pastries we bake, the fresh pasta we make and our home made sauce as some examples.

 

[ibglowin]

I stopped buying "commercial quality" wines from the grocery store several years ago. I have ~300 bottles in the cellar that are all direct ship from the winery or from other online sources. They are predominately all from Washington State with a few from CA just for fun. My quest is for my own wines to taste as good as any of the Columbia Crest H3 line of wines. These are always 89-91 point WS wines that cost a whopping $11 on sale or if you get lucky and find them at Costco. I still don't know how they can make a wine this good in the quantity they produce. They do not taste "chemical" by any means. The numbers (production wise) are nowhere near any of the schlep you find in your local grocery store wine department yet the cost is about the same.

My current favorite is the 2010 H3 Les Chevaux red wine that will stand up to any $40 bottle of wine out of CA and like I said its $11. I know it all begins (and ends really) with the fruit. Not sure I will ever be able to source fruit that high of quality unless I grow it myself (which I am currently attempting) but that is my hope to someday create something of equal quality. The quest is ongoing!

 

[Rocky]

Gee, Mike, have you ever tried the 7-11 store? I get some great wines there! Thunderbird, Annie Green Springs, Mad Dog 20/20. I could go on and on!

I didn't buy wines in grocery stores, either, when I did buy wine. There are several wine retail stores in the area that I used and most could order anything I wanted. I probably have not bought a bottle of wine (other than in a restaurant) for almost 2 years. We belong to both Sam's Club and Costco, but I have never even looked at the wines there except to try to get the wine manager to give or sell me the display boxes.

However, on your recommendation, I will try to find a bottle of Columbia Crest H3 and give it a try. I cannot order it from the Winery because they will not ship to Ohio. I can probably get it through other on-line sources, but a quick check was only able to locate some of the H3 line, but not not the one you mentioned. I will keep looking but it seems that on-line for me they will be about $15 per bottle. No biggie and I am looking forward to it.

Hey, maybe I have no taste for good wine. Maybe I set my sights lower. I was always a "go ugly early" kind of guy; you obviously weren't.

 

[ibglowin]

Check Costco they have had the H3 Les Chaveux, Cab Sauv and Merlot as of late. $10.99 a bottle. If you can't find it there try K&L Wine (online).

I welcome your feedback!

 

[Rocky]

Mike, I will check Costco but I have found that some of the national chains carry different things in the West vs. here in the East. For example, Whole Foods does not carry the red raisins that are referenced here so often. I have not looked closely at Costco wines, but I will. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[ibglowin]

I have found them at many/most Costco's out here int the Southwest part of the country. If you strike out, K&L Wines has them for $10.99 a bottle plus shipping.

Happy hunting!

 

[uavwmn]

This is just me and my $0.02 talking here. I know plenty of folks satisfied with their red kits "as is" with little or no tweaking. I just kept feeling something was still missing and wanting more from them that it got to the point that switching over to fresh was the only thing left that would possibly satisfy my desires for an out of a bottle of "commercial quality" wine that I can truly say I made.

Kits taught me the process, gave me confidence and allowed me to tweak (a little or a lot) without worrying all that much. I still have plenty of good ones in the racks that I have tweaked about as much as one can. They are indeed good/great at 18mo-2 years (All CC Showcase or Showcase LR kits).

I am looking for "exceptional" I guess. I may or may never find it but I will sure as heck enjoy the journey as they say. That to me is what its all about.

Mike, you have peaked my interest here. Do you make your reds from the bucket juice?? Do you get your juice/skins from George?
Kathie

 

[ibglowin]

I have been sourcing fresh grapes for the last 3 seasons now. I started out making 200lbs the 1st year, then 800lbs last year and this year will go up to almost 1000lbs.

I just bottled my 2012 WE LR Red Mountain Meritage last night. This was my first (and last more than likely) WE kit. This went through a Vadai barrel, had a hefty dose of Tannin added and it was 8 mo old when bottled.

So what are my tasting notes.

Nice Oak (I did add the french oak dust and chips before it went into the barrel)
Not a big boquet' on the nose but whats there is pleasant
Body is good but not what I would call fantastic or as good as a CC Showcase kit. I even added a CC Syrah grape pack to this kit as well.
Finish is nice, the tannins are there but not in your face by any means.

But, this wine tasted...... like it was off dry or backsweetened. It fermented out to 0.996 so its dry but has a pretty good hint of sweetness to it somehow on the palette.

The leftover glass reminded me very much of a glass of 14 Hands Cabernet Sauvignon. This is Chateau St. Michelle's new consumer wine that competes with the "Apothic Red" wine loving crowd. Smooth easy drinking, lite tannin and just off dry enough to appeal to non red wine drinkers. My wife loves this stuff.

So with that I took the left over glass of wine after bottling into the house and gave it to my wife and said taste this. She LOVED it. Case closed.

WE Kits even when fermented to dry taste like they have been backsweetened (or at least this one did at 8 months). No other red kit I have ever made has had this attribute at all (and I have made a lot)

You can say your tired of hearing about "WE Kit Taste" but it seems real to me and I have the proof in the bottle so to speak. I hope it fades in a couple of years, until then my wife is very happy to drink this stuff......