Just Couldn’t Stand It

[Dean]

25" of mercury (hg) is well within tolerance of standard carboys. The recycled 1 gallon jugs that everyone uses may not be the same strength/thickness of glass that most carboys use. Tim V. when he uses his vacuum keeps his at 25" of hg and goes for lunch while it is under pressure. I've kept many of my carboys at 25" or as close as I could get it for hours at a time. I've not done that to 1 gallon jugs because they are light enough for me to pick them up and shake the heck out of them, which does just as good a job at degassing as the vacuum does. I think that someone did a test on a carboy and found that it was about 450" of hg before they would implode when full. Just remember to have enough liquid in the carboy at least to the shoulders before you start to vacuum so that the liquid inside can resist the pressure. Also check your carboy for weak spots, and small cracks. If you can detect any, don't vacuum it!


Again,I would not do this for 1 gal jugs, but actual carboys that are 2 gal or higher with thick glass!

 

[Waldo]

DeanI read with interest your statement that you just picked up the gallon jugs and shook them to degass. I like that idea but not sure about the proper procedure here. Could you shed more light on this technique please. I know Jobe faced the same dilema as I have in that it is hard to get anything into a lot of these gallon jugs to really give them a good stirring. Edited by: Waldo

 

[jobe05]

Dean:


I had a gallon full and a quart jar full. I did shake the quart jar for a few seconds but decided that the inch or soof fresh air on the top of the bottle was getting infused into my wine. Now, since I just sorbated and sulfited, should I not have been concerned with that small an air space? Also, it has bothered me all day as to what thatvacume sealer actualy went down to...... so I'm thinking of getting some more 1 gallon jugs and sacrificing another older one, but this time with a gauge.

 

[MedPretzel]

I have shook my wines as well when they are in the gallon jugs. I tightly close them with the screw-caps and shook. It didn't do the trick as well as I had hoped, but it does work. Maybe I didn't have enough "umpf" behind my shaking.





A word of warning, though. Be very careful when you unscrew the cap. The best is to hold a towel over the cap -- think of soda when you shake it.

Yes, I speak out of experience.





Also, you might want to move your gallon jugs to a place that's a couple of degrees warmer for about 2 hours or so before you shake, rattle and roll. CO2 comes out of solution (I am not sure if this is the correct term, but I hope it's understandable to all) better/quicker in warmer temps. Don't heat up the wine, but just move it to a slightly warmer area. It could help.


There is also something called the Vacuuvin (I am not sure if I spelled it correctly). It's usually used to close up an open bottle of wine, you pull the extra air out, and the wine should not oxidize. This works well on 1-gallon batches. I've never personally had luck with the 5 or 6 gallon ones (I'm too impatient), but for the 1-gallon ones I think they would be good.


With the vacuum sealers: I have been told by some that you might suck out the SO2 with those things. I don't test for SO2 in my wines, but it could be true. If anyone has any experience with this, please let me know. I'd be interested to know if it really happens or not. Again, this was just added for a heads up. Maybe someone can comment on it.


Otherwise, time heals all wounds, so to speak. If you wait it out, you can wait out the CO2. It will eventually leave the wine.


These are just my thoughts... We'd be interested what worked for you.





Hope this helps,





Martina

 

[Dean]

DeanI read with interest your statement that you just picked up the gallon jugs and shook them to degass. I like that idea but not sure about the proper procedure here. Could you shed more light on this technique please. I know Jobe faced the same dilema as I have in that it is hard to get anything into a lot of these gallon jugs to really give them a good stirring.

Sure thing. Martina covered it for me though. What I dois first rack to a clean carboy because you don't want the sediment getting mixed back up. I take out about 4 cups of wine or 1L (I normally think in metric, not standard). I place my hand over top the hole, and shake up and down and side to side. At this point, think of shaking a bottle of soda to get the fizz out. Essentially, that is what you are doing! Do the same thing for the 4 cups extracted as well. I normally sanitize a 2L plastic pop bottle for that purpose. As Martina said, be careful as it will have the same effect as shaking a pop bottle!!! Don't worry about adding extra air to the wine as the CO2 you are releasing will do a great job of driving out that errant oxygen. If you are really concerned, you can give it a little extra SO2 to make sure that the oxygen doesn't do any damage. I've never had a problem with gassy wines since doing this for my 1 gallon batches! Beware that it can take a few days though.


I do 20 minute sessions until i'm convinced I have the gas out over 2-3 days. I don't shake constantly during that time. I shake, release, let the foam die down, shake, release, let the foam die down, etc. And if I could pick up and shake a 6 gallon carboy, I'd do that too!

 

[masta]

This thread has really become interesting and I would like to add some more info and my thoughts:


Martina is correct in that warming your wine before degassing is helpful, the reason is because a warmer liquid can hold less dissolved gas than if it was cooler.When warming the liquid some of the dissolved CO2 comes out of solution on it's own so when you stir or shake there is actually less gas to force out.


Big thanks to Dean for the excellent posts of details on the amount of vacuum that is used successfully on carboys!

I certainly agree that pulling vacuum on carboys is an efficient way to degas a wine but not without risk if the carboy is weaken at all.As Jobe found out it isn't without risk with other containers than a carboy. I am glad your helper and wine did not suffer at all. Hope he took notes as it would make an excellent science fair project for school!


Afellow colleague at work helped me calculate the effect of vacuum on the boiling point of ethanol.


Notes: Atmospheric pressure is 14.72 psia


This can also be stated as:
<UL>
<LI>29 117/127 inches of mercury ¡Ö 29.92 inHg
<LI>760 millimeters of mercury (mmHg) or torrs (Torr)
<LI>1013.25 millibars (mbar, also mb) or hectopascals (hPa) </LI>[/list]


Boiling point of Ethanol is 78 C or 172.4 F at atmospheric pressure (14.72 psia)


Vacuum at 635 mmHg or 25 inHg boiling point is 74 C or 165.2 F


Vacuum at 300 mmHg or 12.5 inHg boiling point is 56 C or 132.8 F


Vacuum at 100 mmHg or 3.94 inHg boiling point is 34 C or 93.2 F


So bottom line is that your carboy would implode long before you have to worry about flashing off anyethanol.


Since temperature and pressure rise and fall proportional to each other on a closed container pulling vacuum does reduce the boiling point but does not increase the temp it actually lowers it.





Edited by: masta

 

[Dean]

Dean:


I had a gallon full and a quart jar full. I did shake the quart jar for a few seconds but decided that the inch or soof fresh air on the top of the bottle was getting infused into my wine. Now, since I just sorbated and sulfited, should I not have been concerned with that small an air space? Also, it has bothered me all day as to what thatvacume sealer actualy went down to...... so I'm thinking of getting some more 1 gallon jugs and sacrificing another older one, but this time with a gauge.

Fresh sulphite will take care of the extra oxygen. I wouldn't worry too much about getting that little bit in your wine. The co2 gas that you release will drive that oxygen right out anyways. I have tested the vac-u-vin and that can pull almost 20" of hg at sea level, and the mityvac can pull 25" of hg at sea level. I find that the closer to 25" that I get, the better the degassing. Attached is a pic of both the vac-u-vin and the mityvac. The vac-u-vin is the little gray stopper on the orange cap, and of course the mightyvac is the guage pump in my hand.I use an adjustable ring to make sure that I get a tight seal on the carboy.

 

[jobe05]

Dean &amp; Masta,


Thanks to both of you for your help and fine expertice and willingness to help us understand............... OK, help us lazey folks find an easy way of getting the co2 out of our wines the easy way............


My wife has ordered me the mityvac (xmas present), but will I need the vacuvin? what is it's purpose? can't I just plug the other hole?

 

[Dean]

Dean &amp; Masta,


Thanks to both of you for your help and fine expertice and willingness to help us understand............... OK, help us lazey folks find an easy way of getting the co2 out of our wines the easy way............


My wife has ordered me the mityvac (xmas present), but will I need the vacuvin? what is it's purpose? can't I just plug the other hole?

Yes, you can just plug the other hole. I use both as the vac-u-vin has a longer stroke, hence will take more air out of the carboy faster. I take it down to 20"hg, then use the mityvac for the rest to take it down as low as I can get it. It is a challenge trying to keep the guage at 25! Gas is coming out, killing the vacuum, so I'm pumping away to keep the pressure up! Be warned: This is not like the regular foam you get when de-gassing with a whip. I use my whip as well for larger carboys. This almost looks like the wine is starting to go into a slow boil. Very large bubbles come to the surface

. You will be perfectly fine with just the mityvac!

 

[Waldo]

Thanks all for the very helpful info !!

I think I am going to designa fizz-x especially for gallon size carboys. I think there is definately a market for them. Edited by: Waldo

 

[MedPretzel]

[url]http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8 41&amp;PN=1[/url]





Shows my attempt to demonstrate the Vacuvin. Not one of my better phototorials!

 

[Vaughn]

...and of course the mightyvac is the guage pump in my hand.

Hey! I just realized I own a Mightyvac and didn't know it! It came with the brake bleeder kit that I got at Pep Boys. I use it to bleed the brakes on my VW. What a deal!

There's no guage on it, though.

 

[Waldo]

I bet you could inline a gauge pretty easy Vaughn and the gauges are cheap Edited by: Waldo

 

[Waldo]

Pstttttttttttt Hey Jobe...Back to the Muscadien podner. So is she dropping lees like a frost bitten Maple in a wind storm?

 

[masta]

This is what you need:

 

[jobe05]

Waldo:


It has dropped some lees, not much yet. Seems to be getting clearer, not see through clear yet, but a much cleaner red look to it. How long do you think it would take to completely clear? And would it help if warmer or colder, or would it not matter. I don't mind either way, I just want to start drinking it!

 

[Waldo]

Patience my friend. It took my Muscadine about 5 weeks to clear. It was about 14-15 days after I racked from the fermeter before I did another racking and then another couple of weeks before it was cleared. The wine will benifit greatly from aging if you can do it. I have 8 bottles of mine left I am hell bent on aging for at least a year. Bottle it in 375 ml bottles if you can Jobe and stick at least a couple back and forget them while you curse yourself for not buying enough Muscadines for at leasta 3 gallon batch

 

[jobe05]

while you curse yourself for not buying enough Muscadines for at leasta 3 gallon batch

Next year Im going to be better prepared! Already found 3 vinyards that are "pick your own" and I have found a place on line that sells 3 year old plants for$6.95 each. Im putting a chain link fence aroundmy back yard next year and have thought about incorporating a trellis of sorts into that fence for grapes.......... Nothing less thana 6 gallon batch for me next year! Although I have a hunch that the memory of this batch will be long faded before next year

 

[Waldo]

To the contrary Jobe I think you will find that this gallon of wine wll be remembered for many years to come. Never again will you process Muscadines that you will not recall running back to Wal-Mart for more. The excitement of the imploding jug and most surely the memory of the first mouthfeel of your finally finished Muscadine wine will be there for a long time to come.

 

[Waldo]

How is that Muscadine doing Jobe?